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Old 28th July 2019, 08:01 AM   #1
Philip
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Default Orban's creation

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando

*** Philip is right in that the Constantinople crowd ran for their lives over Mehmed's massive cannon firing endlessly on the walls, but maybe the effect from the assailants side was not so unbearable, specially spaced by the extremely slow rate of its reloading; adding by the way that (as i've read), its imprecision gave the besieged the opportunity to repair most of the damage after each shot, limiting the cannon's effect.
Is such story plausible, Philip ?

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Nando, the incident with Mehmet's cannon that I summarized in the earlier post was taken from Turkish chronicles much-quoted by historians such as Runciman, Babinger, and Lord Kinross writing about Mehmet the Conqueror and his career. The description was not from a siege memoir, but rather focuses on the pre-siege test-firing of the largest gun (named Basilisc) that the renegade Hungarian Orban made for Mehmet at the foundry at Edirne (former Greek Adrianople, by then in Ottoman hands). The populace had been warned of the test shot in advance and told not to panic, but apparently the noise (said to be audible for 100 stadia or 10 miles) and the massive amount of smoke did cause a lot of consternation. Measurements in the chronicle allow us to picture a 26.5 foot barrel with a bore roughly 30 in. in diameter, shooting a stone ball weighing 12 hundredweight (over half a ton). Fifteen yoked pair of oxen and 700 men were required to shlep this thing from foundry to test site and ready it for firing. The first shot was said to propel the huge sphere for about a mile, and it buried itself six feet into the earth on impact.

It is believed that the guns used to batter Constantinople's Theodosian ramparts (visible in restored condition today) were not mounted in carriages as we know them, but rather propped on earthen berms to provide the requisite elevation. As such, accuracy was nil but Orban was not idly boasting when he told the Sultan that his creations could batter the walls of Babylon into ruin. The projectiles did tremendous damage when they did connect. A slow rate of fire and susceptibility to damage (such as bursting) also compromised the effectiveness of these cannon. Basilisc only managed three shots daily, and became inoperative after several weeks.

Nando, your observations are spot on. The effect on defenders' morale, not to mention that of the civilian non-combatants within the walls, must have been horrendous. Weapons of this size and power were a relative novelty to most people of the era, even seasoned soldiers. It's true that a very slow rate of fire allowed the defenders to shore up the breeches to help repel infantry assaults, but repeated exposure must have been wearing. Considering that...

...According to historian Steven Runciman, under 7000 Byzantine soldiers and foreign Christian volunteers and mercenaries had to defend 14 miles of walls and gates(counting both landward and seaward defenses) against some 80,000 Turks (inclusive of elite troops, regular troops, and irregulars) who attacked on land and water, with the help of cannon. Guns which Orban originally offered to the Byzantine emperor, who refused to pay his asking price!

One would imagine that the Turkish rank and file got used to the presence of these monsters especially the infantry who saw how they could make the job of taking a massively-walled city somewhat easier on them. However, as in Europe, guns and the men who served them must have engendered fear and mistrust for reasons given in prior posts. Another history of the siege which I have read states that Basilisc actually exploded at one point -- reinforcing the idea that the dicey metallurgy and design of early cannon could make them as dangerous to shooters as to the intended targets.

Which brings me to admit an oversight that I made earlier -- in that the bombards used in Europe, with their forged wrought iron stave-and-hoop construction, were quite a different breed of cat from Orban's creations. The period documentation indicates that Mehmet's siege cannon were cast -- in the case of Basilisc, in a foundry at the Ottoman capital. Although Basilisc has not survived, a huge Turkish cannon made just a decade or so later has -- the so-called Dardanelles Gun which can be seen today at Ft. Nelson, above Portsmouth. It's safe to conclude that its construction mirrors that of Orban's designs (he didn't live beyond the year of the siege). Even more remarkable is the fact that this gun, and smaller ones of the era still existing in Turkey, are of two -piece construction, the chamber section is screw-threaded into the barrel proper with remarkable precision for the day. Amazing!
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Old 28th July 2019, 05:55 PM   #2
fernando
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip
...The description was not from a siege memoir, but rather focuses on the pre-siege test-firing of the largest gun (named Basilisc...
News for me: i realized that Basilisc was a type of large cannon and not the name of Mehmet's beast. The famous "Tiro de Diu" kept in the Lisbon Military museum (to revisit) is equally tagged as a basilisc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip
... only managed three shots daily, and became inoperative after several weeks...
Oh boy, given all troubles managing this monster, cited above and under, it takes a lot of determination to include it in the operations. If only the Sultan had to maneuver it himself .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip
...Which brings me to admit an oversight that I made earlier -- in that the bombards used in Europe, with their forged wrought iron stave-and-hoop construction, were quite a different breed of cat from Orban's creations. The period documentation indicates that Mehmet's siege cannon were cast -- in the case of Basilisc, in a foundry at the Ottoman capital...
Timelines are more or less coincidental. Around this period the Duchy of Burgundy, the greatest military power around, engaged in relations with the Portuguese Kingdom and great numbers of material were received, namely 134 fire mouths (cannons), from which some were in bronze. It is evident that this material was used in the North African campaigns, when looking at the Pastrana tapisseries. It is natural, quoting General Barata that, soon after, between end Dom Afonso V realm and beg. that of Dom Manuel I (1480-95) bronze cannon manufacture was initiated in Portugal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip
... Although Basilisc has not survived, a huge Turkish cannon made just a decade or so later has -- the so-called Dardanelles Gun which can be seen today at Ft. Nelson, above Portsmouth. It's safe to conclude that its construction mirrors that of Orban's designs (he didn't live beyond the year of the siege)...
I was reading about this one the other day; among some confusion over both being 'allocated' to the Constantinople siege episode, the Dardanelles one would have being cast by Munir Ali in 1464, notwithstanding in an Orban's fashion. Also its weight is impressive; when coming to comparisons like that with the Mons Meg, we are talking about more than the double weight, despite their other specs being (almost) similar. Alright, the Mons Meg is in iron and this one is bronze, but the difference, i guess, resides more in its massive (thickness) construction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip
... Even more remarkable is the fact that this gun, and smaller ones of the era still existing in Turkey, are of two -piece construction, the chamber section is screw-threaded into the barrel proper with remarkable precision for the day. Amazing! ...
Yes, this idea to build it in two halves, apparently to facilitate its transport, is genius ... screwing cog rings and all. What one may be not so sure of is if, while this was a rather smart logistic asset, its susceptibility to gases escaping would not be a serious issue.


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Old 28th July 2019, 06:10 PM   #3
kronckew
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Mons Meg: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mons_Meg

Another Photo broadside, and of the section that failed, retiring the weapon (It's just a flesh wound). Looks like a hoop failure. Apparently range was around 2 miles, balls have been found that far away from it's firing point. note the holes for tools used in re-assembling the screwed parts. Probably a slightly bigger set like the coupling tool also below.
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Last edited by kronckew; 28th July 2019 at 06:23 PM.
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