The Beginning:- A Question

drdavid · 5th July 2019, 10:44 PM

Keeping in mind the lingam then the beginning/base should be where the pesi joins the blade. This might not include the gonjo which could be seen as an external addition to the lingam. The pesi itself could be seen as an internal attachment feature rather than part of the lingam. Shavism might dispute this interpretation of the lingam symbolism

drdavid · 5th July 2019, 10:49 PM

You might also ask who does the keris truly belong to ie the giver (wielder/lingam holder) or the receiver (victim/yoni), if it is the giver the beginning (point of first contact) is the gonjo or blumbangan, if it is the receiver then the point of first contact is the tip
DrD

A. G. Maisey · 5th July 2019, 10:55 PM

In some cases Dr. David, that keris might belong to entire family, or even an entire community.

Your first idea was very nice. At school I was taught never to use words like "good", "bad", "nice" without pausing to think if there is a better word that could be used instead. I went to a pretty old fashioned school. So I did think before using "nice", and this is indeed a very correct word in this instance.

Bob A · 6th July 2019, 12:16 AM

No philosphers in my cupboard, Alan; I even looked for a Philosopher's Stone, but no luck. My dross will have to remain, ungilded.

OK looking at a keris. If it's sheathed, very little of the actual blade is visible, and I don't consider the dress as an integral part of the keris, though many would disagree. For me the blade is, if not everything, at least the essence.

Unsheathed, while I'd like to make a point of the point, it's still the shape or outline of the blade that catches the eye and forces a closer look at details. While you may think that this is not quite "the beginning," I'd reply that it was the goal of the maker, and existed in some form in his mind's eye, which he then brought into existence on this lower plane.

I'd take issue with the gonjo being the beginning; anatomically it seems incorrect, if one considers the whole of the object, which is among many other factors a symbolic representation of the virile member, so to speak. That said, the point of either is in many ways also the end of the object under discussion, yet it's what is first met with when used for its intended purpose.

So I'd have to say that the end is also the beginning, conceptually. So to speak.

Interesting question.

Rick · 6th July 2019, 12:48 AM

Possibly the real beginning of a keris is in the mind's eye of the Maker.

A. G. Maisey · 6th July 2019, 01:26 AM

Bob & Rick, I think you're both philosophers, and of course you are both absolutely right from a philosophical point of view.

But I'm a very simple man, and I tried my best to ask a very simple question, I was not looking for any type of technical approach, neither the technology of the forge, nor the technology of the mind.

May I suggest that we forget about the things that we might believe, or even truly know about the keris?

It is an object, its physical beginning is somewhere, maybe the little end, maybe the big end, maybe one side or another, maybe one face or another.

It is a thing, it has a certain length, a certain width and a certain height.

Where does that thing begin?

I'm trying to go somewhere with this, this is just chapter one, and what I would really like to see are some simple, uncomplicated opinions, just like my simple, uncomplicated question.

Rick · 6th July 2019, 05:13 AM

I am no philosopher Mate.
The opinion I expressed in my first response to your question must stand as stated.

Why?

Because as you reiterated in your response to Bob and I it is a simple answer to a simple question and an opinion.

6th July 2019, 12:16 AM	#4
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 436	No philosphers in my cupboard, Alan; I even looked for a Philosopher's Stone, but no luck. My dross will have to remain, ungilded. OK looking at a keris. If it's sheathed, very little of the actual blade is visible, and I don't consider the dress as an integral part of the keris, though many would disagree. For me the blade is, if not everything, at least the essence. Unsheathed, while I'd like to make a point of the point, it's still the shape or outline of the blade that catches the eye and forces a closer look at details. While you may think that this is not quite "the beginning," I'd reply that it was the goal of the maker, and existed in some form in his mind's eye, which he then brought into existence on this lower plane. I'd take issue with the gonjo being the beginning; anatomically it seems incorrect, if one considers the whole of the object, which is among many other factors a symbolic representation of the virile member, so to speak. That said, the point of either is in many ways also the end of the object under discussion, yet it's what is first met with when used for its intended purpose. So I'd have to say that the end is also the beginning, conceptually. So to speak. Interesting question. Last edited by Bob A; 6th July 2019 at 12:29 AM.

5th July 2019, 10:44 PM	#1
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Keeping in mind the lingam then the beginning/base should be where the pesi joins the blade. This might not include the gonjo which could be seen as an external addition to the lingam. The pesi itself could be seen as an internal attachment feature rather than part of the lingam. Shavism might dispute this interpretation of the lingam symbolism

5th July 2019, 10:49 PM	#2
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	You might also ask who does the keris truly belong to ie the giver (wielder/lingam holder) or the receiver (victim/yoni), if it is the giver the beginning (point of first contact) is the gonjo or blumbangan, if it is the receiver then the point of first contact is the tip DrD

5th July 2019, 10:55 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	In some cases Dr. David, that keris might belong to entire family, or even an entire community. Your first idea was very nice. At school I was taught never to use words like "good", "bad", "nice" without pausing to think if there is a better word that could be used instead. I went to a pretty old fashioned school. So I did think before using "nice", and this is indeed a very correct word in this instance.

6th July 2019, 12:48 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Possibly the real beginning of a keris is in the mind's eye of the Maker.

6th July 2019, 01:26 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Bob & Rick, I think you're both philosophers, and of course you are both absolutely right from a philosophical point of view. But I'm a very simple man, and I tried my best to ask a very simple question, I was not looking for any type of technical approach, neither the technology of the forge, nor the technology of the mind. May I suggest that we forget about the things that we might believe, or even truly know about the keris? It is an object, its physical beginning is somewhere, maybe the little end, maybe the big end, maybe one side or another, maybe one face or another. It is a thing, it has a certain length, a certain width and a certain height. Where does that thing begin? I'm trying to go somewhere with this, this is just chapter one, and what I would really like to see are some simple, uncomplicated opinions, just like my simple, uncomplicated question.

6th July 2019, 05:13 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	I am no philosopher Mate. The opinion I expressed in my first response to your question must stand as stated. Why? Because as you reiterated in your response to Bob and I it is a simple answer to a simple question and an opinion.