Dutch hanger for russian market?

M ELEY · 29th June 2019, 08:57 AM

How did I miss this one? Jasper, you've got a great eye for cutlasses! This one is a real beauty! Unfortunately, I've nothing to add on your export theory. Seems plausible enough. Lord knows the Dutch were importing and exporting all manner of fine swords during this period. Congrats on the cutlass and if you ever decide to part with it, well, you know the rest!

Mark

cornelistromp · 29th June 2019, 10:49 AM

thank you Mark, yes it is indeed a beautiful and very interesting cutlass.
I think the image of the Sultan defeated by lions refers to the demise of the Turkish Empire in central Europe at the end of the 17th century.

fe The Treaty of Constantinople of 1700, after the Sultan had lost the Azov region to Peter the Great.

attached: Taking of Azov, a 17th-century Dutch engraving, 1699 - Adriaan van Schoonebeek

best,
jasper

fernando · 29th June 2019, 04:25 PM

An excellent sword indeed; and with such a powerful blade for a hanger

.

Victrix · 29th June 2019, 05:08 PM

That’s a lovely sword, Jasper. Congratulations. I like the honest signs of wear and the historic decorations which you commented on.

Do you think the sword originally had a tang nut which was removed to rehilt it, and replaced with a peened tang?

Also I wanted to ask you if the Netherlands produced its own blades or imported them all. I know a lot was purchased from Solingen. In Sweden the king first ordered the production of local blades in the first half of the 17thC, which was organized by Admiral Clas Feming (who’s family ancestry was of Flemish origins not surprisingly).

cornelistromp · 30th June 2019, 11:33 AM

hard to tell if there had been a tang button, see fe examples on

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=lionhilt

there was a lively trade in arms in the 17th c.
parts were imported from everywhere and assembled into weapons in the Netherlands, fe blades from Solingen and Passau.
the Dutch arms market was a source for supply for everybody who wanted to wage war or was under attack.
In 1592 Sweden placed an urgent order for a regiment of 1500 people for the war against Muscovy in Holland; 200 muskets, 800 calivers,1000 helmets, 350 suits of armour , 1000 pikes , 500 rapiers and cutlasses and 30 drums. ( the arsenal of the world the dutch arms trade in the 17thC, p.14)

best,
jasper

Victrix · 30th June 2019, 12:47 PM

Yes Sweden initially imported a lot of arms from the Netherlands. When king Gustavus Adolphus ordered the creation of local swords manufacturing in Vira bruk under the management of Clas Fleming, the products often showed Dutch design influences. Sweden smuggled in sword smiths from Solingen for the required expertise. There was a German smith in particular called Caspar Kohl (+1653).

Jim McDougall · 30th June 2019, 06:57 PM

I have been watching this discussion (and of course admiring this cutlass!) and am glad to see things develop. I am curious Jasper about the designation of Russia as the potential client for this particular hilt. I am not questioning it, but curious about the particulars.
It seems the Netherlands were especially fond of elaborate and decorative themes in their hilts for these high end dress swords. While they of course were indeed the 'arsenal of the world' as Puype so well put it, furnishing huge volume of other ranks arms.....these beautifully hilted swords excelled as well.

I had thought perhaps you meant that the lions devouring the Ottoman sultan were indicative of Russian victory over the Turks (in the generations of wars they fought against them) but realized that the lion was a key symbol used in Dutch themes as seen with their lionhead hilts.
It would seem that the Dutch had a kind of unusual circumstance with the Ottomans, as the Dutch were struggling with Catholic dominance there, and even had declared themselves 'better Turk than Papist' as see in the "guezen' associations in the 'Spanish Netherlands' (1556-1714). While they had varying degree of alliance or cooperation with Ottomans, I am unclear on that standing during the European Holy League (Austria, Poland, Venice) which also seems to have somewhat included Russia.

However, as always. arms trade knows no sides, and the commerce moves regardless of politics or any other delineating circumstance it would seem.

These thumb guard hilts seem to have prevailed long after that feature had diminished (after c. 1700) and these kinds of shell guard hilts survived and were produced in the simpler single shell form well through the 18th c.

I am wondering if refurbishing at some point in maintaining these long favored swords and keeping them serviceable might account for the seemingly incongruent peen.

That is the wonder of these magnificent swords, the stories that they often hold in the deviations and anomalies about them, that reflect the character established during their often very long working lives.

29th June 2019, 10:49 AM	#2
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	thank you Mark, yes it is indeed a beautiful and very interesting cutlass. I think the image of the Sultan defeated by lions refers to the demise of the Turkish Empire in central Europe at the end of the 17th century. fe The Treaty of Constantinople of 1700, after the Sultan had lost the Azov region to Peter the Great. attached: Taking of Azov, a 17th-century Dutch engraving, 1699 - Adriaan van Schoonebeek best, jasper Attached Images

29th June 2019, 05:08 PM	#4
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	That’s a lovely sword, Jasper. Congratulations. I like the honest signs of wear and the historic decorations which you commented on. Do you think the sword originally had a tang nut which was removed to rehilt it, and replaced with a peened tang? Also I wanted to ask you if the Netherlands produced its own blades or imported them all. I know a lot was purchased from Solingen. In Sweden the king first ordered the production of local blades in the first half of the 17thC, which was organized by Admiral Clas Feming (who’s family ancestry was of Flemish origins not surprisingly). Last edited by Victrix; 29th June 2019 at 11:31 PM.

29th June 2019, 08:57 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,159	How did I miss this one? Jasper, you've got a great eye for cutlasses! This one is a real beauty! Unfortunately, I've nothing to add on your export theory. Seems plausible enough. Lord knows the Dutch were importing and exporting all manner of fine swords during this period. Congrats on the cutlass and if you ever decide to part with it, well, you know the rest! Mark

29th June 2019, 04:25 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	An excellent sword indeed; and with such a powerful blade for a hanger .

30th June 2019, 11:33 AM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	hard to tell if there had been a tang button, see fe examples on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=lionhilt there was a lively trade in arms in the 17th c. parts were imported from everywhere and assembled into weapons in the Netherlands, fe blades from Solingen and Passau. the Dutch arms market was a source for supply for everybody who wanted to wage war or was under attack. In 1592 Sweden placed an urgent order for a regiment of 1500 people for the war against Muscovy in Holland; 200 muskets, 800 calivers,1000 helmets, 350 suits of armour , 1000 pikes , 500 rapiers and cutlasses and 30 drums. ( the arsenal of the world the dutch arms trade in the 17thC, p.14) best, jasper

30th June 2019, 12:47 PM	#6
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Yes Sweden initially imported a lot of arms from the Netherlands. When king Gustavus Adolphus ordered the creation of local swords manufacturing in Vira bruk under the management of Clas Fleming, the products often showed Dutch design influences. Sweden smuggled in sword smiths from Solingen for the required expertise. There was a German smith in particular called Caspar Kohl (+1653).

30th June 2019, 06:57 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	I have been watching this discussion (and of course admiring this cutlass!) and am glad to see things develop. I am curious Jasper about the designation of Russia as the potential client for this particular hilt. I am not questioning it, but curious about the particulars. It seems the Netherlands were especially fond of elaborate and decorative themes in their hilts for these high end dress swords. While they of course were indeed the 'arsenal of the world' as Puype so well put it, furnishing huge volume of other ranks arms.....these beautifully hilted swords excelled as well. I had thought perhaps you meant that the lions devouring the Ottoman sultan were indicative of Russian victory over the Turks (in the generations of wars they fought against them) but realized that the lion was a key symbol used in Dutch themes as seen with their lionhead hilts. It would seem that the Dutch had a kind of unusual circumstance with the Ottomans, as the Dutch were struggling with Catholic dominance there, and even had declared themselves 'better Turk than Papist' as see in the "guezen' associations in the 'Spanish Netherlands' (1556-1714). While they had varying degree of alliance or cooperation with Ottomans, I am unclear on that standing during the European Holy League (Austria, Poland, Venice) which also seems to have somewhat included Russia. However, as always. arms trade knows no sides, and the commerce moves regardless of politics or any other delineating circumstance it would seem. These thumb guard hilts seem to have prevailed long after that feature had diminished (after c. 1700) and these kinds of shell guard hilts survived and were produced in the simpler single shell form well through the 18th c. I am wondering if refurbishing at some point in maintaining these long favored swords and keeping them serviceable might account for the seemingly incongruent peen. That is the wonder of these magnificent swords, the stories that they often hold in the deviations and anomalies about them, that reflect the character established during their often very long working lives.