Van Gogh ... or a gun without DNA tests ...

Will M · 24th June 2019, 12:07 PM

Once something like this sells for $180,000 and has been in a museum claiming such provenance the story will stick as truth. Really not much to go on since WW1 and WW2 left plenty of firearms in the ground, rivers and swamps etc.
You would have to believe very hard to fork out $180,000. France is known for all sorts of manufactured provenance and items, you can still buy supposedly WW1 and Waterloo items though it's been cleaned out of these for some time now. I'd much rather have a Van Gogh painting.

fernando · 24th June 2019, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will M

.. I'd much rather have a Van Gogh painting...

I fully subscribe such preference, Will. Specially when considering that this tasteless piece of weaponry may only surpass the category of a piece of rusted junk, if you are being by invaded by an extreme collector viral faith ... even if it comes with a certificate of origin issued by a reliable & qualified a source.

Jim McDougall · 24th June 2019, 04:25 PM

Thanks very much Fernando, I like your way of addressing key comments I note, its easier than my 'Tolstoyean' text, which even I have trouble navigating after I have written it

As I have always been an edged weapons guy, and am horrible at math and measuring things, I have a lot of trouble understanding calibers (and usually find it 'boring' …..shameless pun!). …...but aren't classifications of caliber and bore convertible? I thought .380 was just a way of expressing .38. The Liege weapons are indeed USUALLY stamped, but there seem to be some which are completely blank.

Such is the case with the diminutive .32 cal. pinfire revolver (post #6) I showed in earlier post with quarter and pen. It is regarded as French or German, but entirely unmarked. In its time c.1880s there were I believe regulations on marking and serializing guns in these countries, much as American arms were typically with serial numbers. This pinfire, probably with scores like it produced in huge volumes, was not. In America, the 'suicide specials' also had no serial numbers.

On that note, I actually got that gun in Cody, Wyoming and there was a most unusual museum there (not the gigantic Buffalo Bill one) which was called "The Dug Up Museum". In it were displays of many guns of the 'wild west' which are in relic condition and left 'as is' the way they were found in situ.
The displays are with desert and varied flora to show them in the context they were excavated or found. Many are fascinating and show just how dangerous some were, as the chambers exploded or simultaneously discharged in some cases.
In one case, an old Winchester rifle was found standing against a tree in an extremely remote region in rugged terrain in Nevada, and had been there since around 1890s. Anybodys guess at what happened to the guy who had it.
The Texas Rangers Museum is amazing, never saw so many guns!

Will, you are right, it would be great to have a 'Van Gogh' but I have settled for the copy of "Sunflowers" which has served well for decades with us, and conveys the desired effect. With relics, most have only intrinsic value, unless with stellar provenance, and in my collecting days, the rough examples were what I could afford. As a historian, they had what I wanted anyway, and I knew they hadn't been messed with.

As Fernando has noted, without profoundly witnessed and certified warranty of provenance, it is a rusty old item, and even with this documentation, caveat emptor!

"The Shootist" was a magnificent movie and was indeed his 'magnum opus' as he was of course in real life suffering from cancer as the aged 'shootist' in the movie. In this poignant film, the incredible identity and character of the true icons of the west are shown as only he could portray them. Naturally the 'Earp' doctrine would come into play.

We (I) have wandered of course again, but the topics of forensics, ballistics and the wild west are all important context of the times this event occurred in 1890s France. The indisputable influence of Cody and the 'wild west' even in France were it seems somewhat a factor in this colorfully mysterious case.

fernando · 24th June 2019, 06:29 PM

Concerning caliber systems, to put it simply, this (American) system (.32 -.38 -.45) indicates the caliber in fractions (tenths) of an inch, resulting in that, if you multiply, for example, .38 by the metric measure on an inch (2,54 mm) you have precisely 9,65 millimeters, which would be the equivalent to a conventional rounded up 9 mm European caliber.
Both .38 and .380 are the same same caliber measure, only that .380 is a later manner to indicate developed ammo properties.
The Brits, as the ones that drive by the wrong side (

) had to have their own weird system; a table where a determined caliber, so called 'bore' (or 'gauge' as for shot guns) corresponds to the number of round balls you can cast per pound of lead.
It could be my eyes or the darkness in the picture, but i don't see in the upper revolver picture in post #6 the little openings in the cylinder for the pins (broche) to point out for the "blunt" hammer to strike ... neither in the Apache also shown, one that looks visibly (?) for cartridge ammo.
But if the upper revolver is indeed pinfire, calling it a .32 cal is somehow unhorthodox, i would say; unless it is about an European production 'chambered' for an American contract.
Perhaps the examples shown in that museum said to simultaneously explode in more than one chambers are the so called pepper boxes, famous for such hazardous episodes.
Concerning the wandering that has been taking place, i don't think is such a crime, as long as the convergent subject is about antique gun business

.

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24th June 2019, 06:29 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Concerning caliber systems, to put it simply, this (American) system (.32 -.38 -.45) indicates the caliber in fractions (tenths) of an inch, resulting in that, if you multiply, for example, .38 by the metric measure on an inch (2,54 mm) you have precisely 9,65 millimeters, which would be the equivalent to a conventional rounded up 9 mm European caliber. Both .38 and .380 are the same same caliber measure, only that .380 is a later manner to indicate developed ammo properties. The Brits, as the ones that drive by the wrong side ( ) had to have their own weird system; a table where a determined caliber, so called 'bore' (or 'gauge' as for shot guns) corresponds to the number of round balls you can cast per pound of lead. It could be my eyes or the darkness in the picture, but i don't see in the upper revolver picture in post #6 the little openings in the cylinder for the pins (broche) to point out for the "blunt" hammer to strike ... neither in the Apache also shown, one that looks visibly (?) for cartridge ammo. But if the upper revolver is indeed pinfire, calling it a .32 cal is somehow unhorthodox, i would say; unless it is about an European production 'chambered' for an American contract. Perhaps the examples shown in that museum said to simultaneously explode in more than one chambers are the so called pepper boxes, famous for such hazardous episodes. Concerning the wandering that has been taking place, i don't think is such a crime, as long as the convergent subject is about antique gun business . - Attached Images

24th June 2019, 12:07 PM	#1
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 394	Once something like this sells for $180,000 and has been in a museum claiming such provenance the story will stick as truth. Really not much to go on since WW1 and WW2 left plenty of firearms in the ground, rivers and swamps etc. You would have to believe very hard to fork out $180,000. France is known for all sorts of manufactured provenance and items, you can still buy supposedly WW1 and Waterloo items though it's been cleaned out of these for some time now. I'd much rather have a Van Gogh painting.

24th June 2019, 04:25 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thanks very much Fernando, I like your way of addressing key comments I note, its easier than my 'Tolstoyean' text, which even I have trouble navigating after I have written it As I have always been an edged weapons guy, and am horrible at math and measuring things, I have a lot of trouble understanding calibers (and usually find it 'boring' …..shameless pun!). …...but aren't classifications of caliber and bore convertible? I thought .380 was just a way of expressing .38. The Liege weapons are indeed USUALLY stamped, but there seem to be some which are completely blank. Such is the case with the diminutive .32 cal. pinfire revolver (post #6) I showed in earlier post with quarter and pen. It is regarded as French or German, but entirely unmarked. In its time c.1880s there were I believe regulations on marking and serializing guns in these countries, much as American arms were typically with serial numbers. This pinfire, probably with scores like it produced in huge volumes, was not. In America, the 'suicide specials' also had no serial numbers. On that note, I actually got that gun in Cody, Wyoming and there was a most unusual museum there (not the gigantic Buffalo Bill one) which was called "The Dug Up Museum". In it were displays of many guns of the 'wild west' which are in relic condition and left 'as is' the way they were found in situ. The displays are with desert and varied flora to show them in the context they were excavated or found. Many are fascinating and show just how dangerous some were, as the chambers exploded or simultaneously discharged in some cases. In one case, an old Winchester rifle was found standing against a tree in an extremely remote region in rugged terrain in Nevada, and had been there since around 1890s. Anybodys guess at what happened to the guy who had it. The Texas Rangers Museum is amazing, never saw so many guns! Will, you are right, it would be great to have a 'Van Gogh' but I have settled for the copy of "Sunflowers" which has served well for decades with us, and conveys the desired effect. With relics, most have only intrinsic value, unless with stellar provenance, and in my collecting days, the rough examples were what I could afford. As a historian, they had what I wanted anyway, and I knew they hadn't been messed with. As Fernando has noted, without profoundly witnessed and certified warranty of provenance, it is a rusty old item, and even with this documentation, caveat emptor! "The Shootist" was a magnificent movie and was indeed his 'magnum opus' as he was of course in real life suffering from cancer as the aged 'shootist' in the movie. In this poignant film, the incredible identity and character of the true icons of the west are shown as only he could portray them. Naturally the 'Earp' doctrine would come into play. We (I) have wandered of course again, but the topics of forensics, ballistics and the wild west are all important context of the times this event occurred in 1890s France. The indisputable influence of Cody and the 'wild west' even in France were it seems somewhat a factor in this colorfully mysterious case.