Old Cirebon Keris for comment.

Jean · 24th June 2019, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

the second photo I would hesitate to be definite about, it actually looks as if it has been remade/reshaped by somebody who was not a tukang wrongko, I would probably give this second wrongko as generic Jawa. The third (dark wood) wrongko I would give as East Jawa/Madura.

Alan,
The scabbard (iras) shown on my second picture is undoubtfully old and looks original but the gambar is undersized indeed and the gandar was probably covered by a pendok, which gives it its odd appearance.
Regarding the proposed West Java origin for the third specimen, I have relied on the opinion of the Swiss expert Gaspard de Marval, see page 41 of his reference book "Le Monde du Kriss", and he also shows a typical gayaman scabbard from East Java.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 24th June 2019, 01:27 PM

Thank you for that reference Jean.

Interesting.

Not infrequently I find my opinions are at variance with those who are regarded as experts. Probably because I have not learnt from the books of these experts, but rather have formed my own opinions based upon my own observations and what I have been told by people living in Jawa and Bali, whom I have regarded as knowing more than I do.

In respect of the second wrongko that I think shows some indications of re-work, I was not looking so much at the gandar, but rather at some peculiarities in the overall workmanship. Still, this is immaterial, it is a given that any old wrongko will have sustained some damage, and along the way that damage will have been repaired.

Actually Jean, I am not now and have not been for a very long time on any crusade to bring enlightenment to the world, if others treasure beliefs different to my own I am quite happy to allow those beliefs to go undisturbed. A long time in the past I did hold the conviction that all things related to the keris could be quantified, classified and registered as being just so. I no longer hold this conviction. My present position is that a very few things are inarguable, nearly everything else is quite hazy.

I believe that perhaps the majority of experienced students of the keris now understand that most keris "knowledge" is in fact part of one keris belief system or another. I am of the opinion that at least one of those keris belief systems has been generated by those people who collect the physical keris.

24th June 2019, 01:27 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Thank you for that reference Jean. Interesting. Not infrequently I find my opinions are at variance with those who are regarded as experts. Probably because I have not learnt from the books of these experts, but rather have formed my own opinions based upon my own observations and what I have been told by people living in Jawa and Bali, whom I have regarded as knowing more than I do. In respect of the second wrongko that I think shows some indications of re-work, I was not looking so much at the gandar, but rather at some peculiarities in the overall workmanship. Still, this is immaterial, it is a given that any old wrongko will have sustained some damage, and along the way that damage will have been repaired. Actually Jean, I am not now and have not been for a very long time on any crusade to bring enlightenment to the world, if others treasure beliefs different to my own I am quite happy to allow those beliefs to go undisturbed. A long time in the past I did hold the conviction that all things related to the keris could be quantified, classified and registered as being just so. I no longer hold this conviction. My present position is that a very few things are inarguable, nearly everything else is quite hazy. I believe that perhaps the majority of experienced students of the keris now understand that most keris "knowledge" is in fact part of one keris belief system or another. I am of the opinion that at least one of those keris belief systems has been generated by those people who collect the physical keris. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 24th June 2019 at 01:47 PM.