ANOTHER SECRET OF WOOTZ (Or is it????)

ALEX · 24th April 2006, 12:41 PM

The secret of Damascus Steel of Legend has been considered The Lost Art for about 100 years. But now, when the secret has been solved, can we even term it as “Lost Art”?…well, I still do when I show off my Damascus Steel collection J. But seriously, is it Lost, when we have “Know How” and CAN successfully reproduce it? Moreover, is it possible that the Wootz of Legend will be mass-produced any way you want it – Kirk-Rose, Double/Triple Kirk-Rose, etc.
Now, get ready for this… is it another secret? Something we did not even thought of. Let me explain:
A friend of mine has a wootz blade with pattern-writing on it (I just came up with the term, BTW). Seriously, the wootz pattern takes form of Arabic letters. No, I am not talking about etching, waxes, or any other mechanical methods. The Wootz PATTERN itself forms the letters. There are also regular random lines, circles, etc, just like any regular wootz pattern, but under magnifier glass – you see clear Arabic Letters, scattered along the full lengths of the blade, presumable forming a verse from Quran. Now, that is AMAZING!!!!!
Have anyone heard of or saw anything like this?

P.S. Please do not ask if the blade is for sale. It actually is, but trust me, you can NOT afford it

M.carter · 24th April 2006, 01:07 PM

Interesting, any pics??

nechesh · 24th April 2006, 03:24 PM

Well Alex, i too would love to see pictures of this "AMAZING" blade. Not that i doubt you really, but it is a little difficult for us to talk about something we have not seen.
As for who can afford what, i wouldn't make any assumptions about the ability of certain members here to come up with large amounts of money to gain a desirable new acquisition for their collections. You can, however, be assured that i am not one of them.

Rick · 24th April 2006, 04:12 PM

Not much comment can be made without high quality pictures to view Alex

Have you read chapter 5 in Figiel's book ON DAMASCUS STEEL ? This chapter covers the manipulation of wootz .

ALEX · 24th April 2006, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Not much comment can be made without high quality pictures to view Alex

Have you read chapter 5 in Figiel's book ON DAMASCUS STEEL ? This chapter covers the manipulation of wootz .

Rick, I'll read it again, but I do not believe it mentions anything like it.
As far as pictures, it'll be difficult to make them, as the leters are seen ONLY under strong magnification. I'll try to, as I'd love to have the pics.
Thanks to all for interest.

Rick · 24th April 2006, 05:28 PM

Hi Alex , Figiel mentions nothing (I believe) about making letters in wootz .
He does cover kirk narduban and the rose pattern though .

If these arabic words are so miniscule as to need strong magnification ; I would then wonder if this is not a matter of interpretation of abstract forms resembling something concrete .

Again , without pictures .........

B.I · 24th April 2006, 06:26 PM

hi alex,
this does exist, and as you say, it is very rare. i know of a blade with an inlaid cartouche and bedouh, both of which are replicated within the wootz pattern, some inches above the inlay. (actually, it is the other way round, the inlay replicates the wootz signature)
it is created in the same way a ladder is done, just finer and more intricate. the blade in queston is in london, and has just come back from a temporary loan to paris.
fiegel did not write the definative book on wootz, just a comprehensive account of his own collection and a compilation of already known terms and reference. he did not own one, and probably wasnt aware they existed.
he didnt incude zig-zag ladders either (i think?) and these exist as well.
talented guys, these persians!

RSWORD · 25th April 2006, 12:01 AM

While contemporary knowledge of wootz and it's manufacture has increased dramatically in the past 10 years there are still some unknow factors out there which makes certain patterns not reproduceable at this time. Rick Furrer who is one of the smiths that is currently producing wootz blades shared with us at the Timonium seminar that he is still unable to make the more complicated Persian patterns(naturally forming, not manipulated) and also has not been able to replicate some of the more brilliant coloration found on these fine early blades. Given the exhaustive amount of time involved with sucessfully forging wootz, it may take quite a few more years to "figure" out this part. Rick seems one determined to walk that path though and it will be interesting to see how this progresses and how then will the best of the contemporary wootz compare with the best of the old days.

M.carter · 25th April 2006, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

While contemporary knowledge of wootz and it's manufacture has increased dramatically in the past 10 years there are still some unknow factors out there which makes certain patterns not reproduceable at this time. Rick Furrer who is one of the smiths that is currently producing wootz blades shared with us at the Timonium seminar that he is still unable to make the more complicated Persian patterns(naturally forming, not manipulated) and also has not been able to replicate some of the more brilliant coloration found on these fine early blades. Given the exhaustive amount of time involved with sucessfully forging wootz, it may take quite a few more years to "figure" out this part. Rick seems one determined to walk that path though and it will be interesting to see how this progresses and how then will the best of the contemporary wootz compare with the best of the old days.

I was wondering, is the wootz that Mr.Furrer producing, "traditional"?? I mean produced by traditional ways of producing wootz, and is the steel technically identical to the old wootz?

RSWORD · 25th April 2006, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.carter

I was wondering, is the wootz that Mr.Furrer producing, "traditional"?? I mean produced by traditional ways of producing wootz, and is the steel technically identical to the old wootz?

Yes, it is traditional in the sense that it is a crucible steel. I believe the metallurgical tests performed on his blades meet the carbon levels that most people associate with historical wootz.(at least from the handful of antique blades that have been tested.) I believe Rick has a website where he goes more into detail of his manufacturing techniques. But the short answer, due to my inability to go into more technical detail, is that it is traditional wootz.

M.carter · 25th April 2006, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Yes, it is traditional in the sense that it is a crucible steel. I believe the metallurgical tests performed on his blades meet the carbon levels that most people associate with historical wootz.(at least from the handful of antique blades that have been tested.) I believe Rick has a website where he goes more into detail of his manufacturing techniques. But the short answer, due to my inability to go into more technical detail, is that it is traditional wootz.

Thats Great! Really, who ever thought that wootz would be reproduced. Hopefully, someday after Rick could reproduce all the kinds of historical wootz, we could say that wootz is a "refound art", not a "lost art"

24th April 2006, 12:41 PM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	ANOTHER SECRET OF WOOTZ (Or is it????) The secret of Damascus Steel of Legend has been considered The Lost Art for about 100 years. But now, when the secret has been solved, can we even term it as “Lost Art”?…well, I still do when I show off my Damascus Steel collection J. But seriously, is it Lost, when we have “Know How” and CAN successfully reproduce it? Moreover, is it possible that the Wootz of Legend will be mass-produced any way you want it – Kirk-Rose, Double/Triple Kirk-Rose, etc. Now, get ready for this… is it another secret? Something we did not even thought of. Let me explain: A friend of mine has a wootz blade with pattern-writing on it (I just came up with the term, BTW). Seriously, the wootz pattern takes form of Arabic letters. No, I am not talking about etching, waxes, or any other mechanical methods. The Wootz PATTERN itself forms the letters. There are also regular random lines, circles, etc, just like any regular wootz pattern, but under magnifier glass – you see clear Arabic Letters, scattered along the full lengths of the blade, presumable forming a verse from Quran. Now, that is AMAZING!!!!! Have anyone heard of or saw anything like this? P.S. Please do not ask if the blade is for sale. It actually is, but trust me, you can NOT afford it

24th April 2006, 01:07 PM	#2
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Interesting, any pics??

24th April 2006, 03:24 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well Alex, i too would love to see pictures of this "AMAZING" blade. Not that i doubt you really, but it is a little difficult for us to talk about something we have not seen. As for who can afford what, i wouldn't make any assumptions about the ability of certain members here to come up with large amounts of money to gain a desirable new acquisition for their collections. You can, however, be assured that i am not one of them.

24th April 2006, 04:12 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Not much comment can be made without high quality pictures to view Alex Have you read chapter 5 in Figiel's book ON DAMASCUS STEEL ? This chapter covers the manipulation of wootz .

24th April 2006, 05:28 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hi Alex , Figiel mentions nothing (I believe) about making letters in wootz . He does cover kirk narduban and the rose pattern though . If these arabic words are so miniscule as to need strong magnification ; I would then wonder if this is not a matter of interpretation of abstract forms resembling something concrete . Again , without pictures .........

24th April 2006, 06:26 PM	#7
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi alex, this does exist, and as you say, it is very rare. i know of a blade with an inlaid cartouche and bedouh, both of which are replicated within the wootz pattern, some inches above the inlay. (actually, it is the other way round, the inlay replicates the wootz signature) it is created in the same way a ladder is done, just finer and more intricate. the blade in queston is in london, and has just come back from a temporary loan to paris. fiegel did not write the definative book on wootz, just a comprehensive account of his own collection and a compilation of already known terms and reference. he did not own one, and probably wasnt aware they existed. he didnt incude zig-zag ladders either (i think?) and these exist as well. talented guys, these persians!

25th April 2006, 12:01 AM	#8
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	While contemporary knowledge of wootz and it's manufacture has increased dramatically in the past 10 years there are still some unknow factors out there which makes certain patterns not reproduceable at this time. Rick Furrer who is one of the smiths that is currently producing wootz blades shared with us at the Timonium seminar that he is still unable to make the more complicated Persian patterns(naturally forming, not manipulated) and also has not been able to replicate some of the more brilliant coloration found on these fine early blades. Given the exhaustive amount of time involved with sucessfully forging wootz, it may take quite a few more years to "figure" out this part. Rick seems one determined to walk that path though and it will be interesting to see how this progresses and how then will the best of the contemporary wootz compare with the best of the old days.