Indonesian pedang for identification

[kai]

Hello Detlef,

Good one! (Let me know... )

I'm fairly sure this one is from Sulawesi. Would be good to see the blade stained - this might help to narrow things down.

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by kai

Good one! (Let me know... )

I'm fairly sure this one is from Sulawesi. Would be good to see the blade stained - this might help to narrow things down.

Hello Kai,

Thank you for comment! Sulawesi was my guess as well but wasn't very sure since never have seen a similar one before. But the cross section with the very prominent spine I only know from very old Sulawesi blades.
An etch would need a good polish before and I still have a lot of blade polish jobs in front....

Will let you know in case......

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

This sort of broad, general weaponry is a bit outside my knowledge base, so what I'm putting up for consideration cannot be taken as any sort of expert opinion, only general knowledge based on experience.

There is a Batak sword like this that has a hollow grind --- ie, concave blade face --- it has a name something like rudos, or rodos or similar. Over the years I've had several, and quality and detail varies a lot.

This style of bifurcated hilt is usually associated with Sumatra, lots of stylistic variations, but in other places, including Sulawesi it is somewhere between rare and non-existent.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

There is a Batak sword like this that has a hollow grind --- ie, concave blade face --- it has a name something like rudos, or rodos or similar. Over the years I've had several, and quality and detail varies a lot.

This style of bifurcated hilt is usually associated with Sumatra, lots of stylistic variations, but in other places, including Sulawesi it is somewhere between rare and non-existent.

Hello Alan,

I think you mean the so called rudus (a search here will show some examples), there are similarities but also a lot of differents. It's also called cojang see for example here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=rudus
I will take a picture from this one side by side with my cojang for comparison.
The hilt was the reason that I was unsure about the Sulawesi origin since I never before have seen such a hilt by a Sulawesi sword.

Regards,
Detlef

[Gustav]

To me it also looks like a Sulawesi blade, perhaps traded.

Do we see something similar in van Zonneveld's book, p. 137, picture 575 (a sword from Tanimbar)?

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Gustav, that 575 picture is very similar.

A rudus Detlef? Just looked it up, seems its got a plethora of names, actually there is Javanese thing that has a blade like this too, but all the hilts I've seen on the Jawa ones are different to the hilt on this one.

Thing is this:- these blades don't just stay in one place, they move all over the entire region. I often feel that attaching a geographic location as point of manufacture is a little bit silly. Maybe the idea of "collected in" is a better way to describe things, or for stuff bought well outside the region where there are reliable examples from somewhere or other it could be "attributed to".

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes Gustav, that 575 picture is very similar.

Agreed!

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

A rudus Detlef? Just looked it up, seems its got a plethora of names, actually there is Javanese thing that has a blade like this too, but all the hilts I've seen on the Jawa ones are different to the hilt on this one.

Have a look to van Zonneveld's book on page 115 and for co jang at page 40.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thing is this:- these blades don't just stay in one place, they move all over the entire region. I often feel that attaching a geographic location as point of manufacture is a little bit silly. Maybe the idea of "collected in" is a better way to describe things, or for stuff bought well outside the region where there are reliable examples from somewhere or other it could be "attributed to".

Agree again with you Alan!

Regards,
Detlef

[kai]

Hello Alan,

Thing is this:- these blades don't just stay in one place, they move all over the entire region. I often feel that attaching a geographic location as point of manufacture is a little bit silly. Maybe the idea of "collected in" is a better way to describe things, or for stuff bought well outside the region where there are reliable examples from somewhere or other it could be "attributed to".

It is certainly advisable to be cautious with narrowing down the origin of pieces, especially if there are indications of mixed heritage.

It is well-known that blades or complete pieces got traded all over maritime SE Asia or got gifted between rulers. A good example may be the Aceh sikin panjang observed by Schmeltz in Banjarmasin.

However, whenever it seems possible to specifically place the blade and the hilt (as well as possibly any extant scabbard) to the same originating culture (and to reasonably exclude any other contenders), it seems a moot point not to address a piece as belonging to a given place/culture/period. (If component parts of any example can be attributed to different origins, it also seems preferable to discuss each in detail.)

In my humble opinion, neither the blade nor the hilt of this sword are from Sumatra. Both fit well with examples I believe to be indigenuous to Sulawesi. If pressed, I'd posit this could be from the SE areas; more research (and data from this blade) will be needed to corroborate this notion though.

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

To me it also looks like a Sulawesi blade, perhaps traded.

Do we see something similar in van Zonneveld's book, p. 137, picture 575 (a sword from Tanimbar)?

Hello Gustav,

A very good hint and information. The sword on page 137 look indeed very similar.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Here the promised comparison with a co jang from my collection. Please excuse the quality but I think that the different is visible.

[kai]

Hello Gustav,

Do we see something similar in van Zonneveld's book, p. 137, picture 575 (a sword from Tanimbar)?

Thanks, yes, this seems like a decent match! (Both hilts, from Detlef and me, are less curved though.)

It is well known that blades got exported from eastern Sulawesi and Buton in considerable numbers; there may be a good chance that this hilt also originated there.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Detlef,

The hilt was the reason that I was unsure about the Sulawesi origin since I never before have seen such a hilt by a Sulawesi sword.

Remind me to post a pic of a sword with similar hilt - probably need to take pics first...

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by kai

Remind me to post a pic of a sword with similar hilt - probably need to take pics first...

Hereby done!

[kai]

Hello Detlef,

Thanks for the reminder!

Here's a pic (courtesy of mandaukudi).

BTW, the belt with toggle seems to be Dayak - old but possibly added later (may well indicate an ensemble that traveled to another culture and experienced continued use).

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Detlef,

Thank you for comment! Sulawesi was my guess as well but wasn't very sure since never have seen a similar one before.

You're welcome! While Sumatra is famous for its bifurcated horn hilts, this type is none of those.

There are quite some bifurcated pommel types from Sulawesi, too (cp. Sumara); the more simple ones like this are quite rare though.

But the cross section with the very prominent spine I only know from very old Sulawesi blades.

Certainly antique IMHO. Anything before the 19th c. would need some more data to convince me...

An etch would need a good polish before and I still have a lot of blade polish jobs

I'd hesitate to give this blade a polish; a cleaning and a quick exploratory etch may do and look better than after a full polish.

Will let you know in case......

Thanks!


Regards,
Kai