Twisted mind

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Guys

Then I have a question, the laz bichaq, is a particular blade or a particular hilt??

Nihl do you have a stamp on your blade?

That is a very good question Kubur!! and I was so preoccupied with the 'horned hilt' which is that typically seen on these. However, the key element seems to have been the typically recurved blade. I have seen other styles of hilt on these blades, but rarely.
This becomes a common issue, where it becomes a problem in terming a weapon, by hilt or by blade.

Take for example the tulwar, where we automatically see the dish pommel of the Indo-Persian hilt, but the talwar term applies in a general sense to 'sword' usually a sabre. I have seen 'tulwars' of Deccani form with solid steel shamsir (Persian) type hilts, quillon terminals and langet identical to the Indo-Persian.....it is called still, tulwar.

This becomes one of the most confounding conundrums in naming or terming edged weapons. I think Rawson considered it far too daunting to try to follow the hilt terminology for naming forms, though it is occasionally noted . Pant took the hilt route, arbitrarily trying to designate regional tulwar hilts, and trying to further delineate blade forms as well. The mix becomes of course confusing, at least as far as I have experienced.

Back to the question, in this case, but not following any particular axiom, I would consider the sword posted by Nihl a Laz Bichagi hilt on regular sabre blade.

Illustrations are the typical recurved blade form on the Laz Bichagi, the unusual scabbard shape and the typical 'horned' hilt. These seem to recall the horned head seen on the 'devils head mace' seen in some varied instances of Persian and other examples. However, it has been suggested that these 'horns' may recall similar devices on some early Turkic tribal standards which later became used in tamgas and symbolic devices.

The symbol for the St Irene arsenal in Istanbul has the horned design (with ox tails etc.) which derives from the IYI symbol of the Kayi tribe, one of the 24 Oguz tribes from which the Ottomans descended through Osman Gazi.
This MAY be a plausible denominator for the horned element on these swords but remains of course speculative.

[Nihl]

Kubur,

Unfortunately I was not lucky enough to win this sword, I simply saved the pictures from the website. Because of this, though I can't say for certain, I'm pretty sure the answer is no.



In regards to classifying this piece, I would simply say it's of an atypical/idiosyncratic form. I can't say I've seen any sabers that just happened to be laz-hilted, only sabers produced by the laz with the laz hilt. As I see it this example is no exception. Though I am by no means truly knowledgeable of caucasian sword production, to me the fullers and overall shape of the blade still point it to be of laz origin. The fullers are (relatively) thin and grouped tightly together, and are distributed in clusters along the blade. Though I think 3 sets of fullers are more common, I happen to own a shorter laz bichaq that also only has two sets of fullers. I'm pretty sure the number of fullers in each set varies blade-to-blade though. Looking at the forte of the blade points to a laz origin as well. While the "finger stopping" projection could be carved out of any old blade, the forte itself is notably of the standard smooth, cylindrical laz bichaq form, existing as a built in transition between the blade and the hilt. It's probably more proper to call that part the ricasso, but either way it exists in the general forte area past the hilt, and is of the same style as every other laz bichaq blade. Overall, in my opinion, though there may be outliers from time to time, the laz bichaq exists as a solid type of sword, and not a general form. Of course if there are notable examples of odd combinations of hilts or blades, then feel free to post them and I'll totally eat my words, but as I see it a laz bichaq almost always has a horned hilt and a "dramatic" recurved blade.

On the other hand maybe the blade production for this specific sword was outsourced to some non-laz, who made a generic saber blade, and then sent it back to laz land where it was given the standard hilt.

Also, not to distract, but just a quick question that I've always had - has this forum ever come to a conclusion as to the "origin" of the laz bichaq form? I remember the possibility of it coming from the khopesh was briefly discussed, but beyond that I haven't heard anything. IMO it just seems like the laz combined a saber and a yatagan and called it a day, i.e. extended the tip of the yatagan to make it more slashy (maybe they preferred sabers). BUT I'd very much like to know what the collective "expert" opinion is.

[Ian]

Hi Nihl:

Ariel may be able to help with your question about origins of the laz bichaq.

You mention atypical examples of the laz bichaq (a.k.a. Black Sea yataghan), and I think I have one (presently buried deep in my boxes that were moved not long ago from the U.S. to Australia). Attached is a group picture that shows this sword (second from right), flanked by two more laz bichaq of typical form. The sheathed one has three groups of three fullers, similar to other examples shown on this site.

I have also shown a close up of the unusual hilt. Apologies for the grainy picture, but it's the best I have at the moment.

Ian


P.S. This unusual sword was actually discussed previously on the Forum here and I see that I never got around to posting pictures of it (only the auction link). I will try to dig it out of the collection and post much clearer shots.

[ariel]

An allusion to the Egyptian Khopesh or to Babylonian Sappara has occasionally slithered into collector's /dealer's lingo and is still regularly appears in Russian books. IMHO, any connection is improbable: both of the above were in use literally thousands of years ago in particular locations and nothing similar appeared since till the ~mid-19 century in a place far away from both of those ancient civilizations, in a very small ethnic group in a tiny location ( yes, I know, Christian Greeks from the same area also used it).

Who on Earth had a brilliantly-delusional idea to combine features of Algerean Flissa and Ottoman Yataghan and to add to it a distinctive forked pommel, is a mystery. But the survival time of Laz Bichaqs was short: they vanished at the most after 50-70 years of their existence. Transition to firearms did not help, of course, but the sheer impracticality of that design was likely a decisive factor. After all, Caucasian kindjals of similarly peculiar appearance ( Gurian, for example) continued to be used in Georgia, Turkey (next to Laz Bichaqs) and even became a regulation weapon of the Black Sea Cossack Host. They were engineeringly sound, unlike Laz Bichaqs.
It's like the mule: a crossbreed of a horse and an ass, that is unable to reproduce. There are limits to the viability of evolutionary process and failed progeny is mercilessly eliminated.