The use of European RAPIER blades in Maratha Pata and Khanda swords

fernando · 1st June 2019, 04:52 PM

Amen to all that, Ariel.
I would add to the etymology quiz the suggestion by some dude called Scheler in that, the discussed term comes from the German rappen, raffen = snatch.
But, as in its genesis this sword style had about the same parameters in different nations, and their nationals adopted local idiomatic terms to name the thing, even possibly having given it a different use, evolution then followed its path according to each said nation's needs and imagination; civilian, military, cut thrust, whatever.
Not wanting to be tagged as a radical, i would not reject the perspective that traditionalists would decline the use of the rapier controversial term, despite the burden to spell out a couple describing words, to let know what they refer to.
In the end, the inexorable truth is that, before and after rapiers, swords remain swords.

.

Jim McDougall · 1st June 2019, 06:43 PM

First of all, thank you so much Ibrahiim and Fernando for the kind words.

Ariel, thank you for finally capturing exactly what this thread was all about in the beginning, and the dilemma I referred to, which was we could not know with certainty which type of blade was being noted by the authors. It was never about the 'name game' or the almost nonsensical 'firangi' conundrum.

The point was (no pun intended) that the point-fence style of swordsmanship was completely unknown to the Indians in the 17th c.(as well noted by Tavernier).

As mentioned earlier (and I appreciate the indulgence for the elaborate corpus of cited quotes in my text) Elgood mentioned that the khanda blade was made longer after the arrival of the Europeans. He states this was no doubt to counter the EXTREMELY long blades of the European 'rapiers'

This is of course in accord with the notably (and often 'illegally so', as in Spanish legal restrictions) long rapier blades you show Fernando.

As can be seen with the pata illustration, this wider broadsword blade, which is distinctly German in form, but curiously has the three central fullers and the moons (dukari) as placed on Saharan blades. This type blade with three fullers is identical to my pata, but mine has astral sun, moon etc. This shows clearly that numbers of German blades which had been likely destined for North African entrepots, seem to have diverted to the Indian ports in the west.

In Rawson (1969, #22) is a pata in the V&A museum, 18th c. with this type of 'arming' blade. As noted, these became colloquially associated with the late renaissance period thrusting rapiers, where similar hilts were later mounted with militarily feasible heavier blades. (attached image).

In Pant, the plate of khandas I included with five examples (added below)of line drawings, the one on the far left seems to have a thin rapier blade, but this seems an anomaly or perhaps artistic license?
Rawson notes (p.23) that blades were intended primarily to cut, and only the Maratha swords influenced by European examples, which were given reinforced edged and basket hilts, seem ever to have bee conceived as parrying weapons.

While this suggests that European swordsmanship appears to have had distinct influence on the hilt, with addition of finger guard to complete the basket effect....and the bolstered edges which suggest same to receive blows in parrying.....it still does not seem the thrust was used. Again, this would negate the probable use of the narrow rapier blades.

Thank you guys for the additional input, which helps better evaluate this question as posed.

ariel · 1st June 2019, 06:43 PM

Agree 100%.

And, taking a risk of being chided for not sticking to the topic, the same considerations equally apply to the Katar/jamadhar, Khanda and endless Indonesian controversies. Tribe, tradition and language dictate names.
This is why it is so important to flush out original names and try to correlate them with the people who used them.

Name is an equivalent of a DNA test.

Jim McDougall · 1st June 2019, 07:04 PM

Something I have always wanted to do, and Robert Elgood has already done this in a fashion in his glossaries, is to cross reference the various terms used for particular weapon forms. This would especially benefit ethnographic arms study in offering a 'thesaurus' type reference that would present terms in different contexts and languages. Often there are colloquial or vernacular terms for a type, and sometimes the terms are actually general, such as sa'if; khanda; talwar which are technically = sword, but not otherwise specified.

The name game is typically counterproductive as incomplete or unreferenced use causes confusion, and the method I often use of parenthesized alternate terms becomes clumsy. However, it still becomes the best method at hand in avoiding semantic misunderstandings for those not necessarily deeply engrained in a topic. While most of us here know and understand these variations, many readers do not, and this impairs the learning potential greatly.

Nihl · 4th June 2019, 08:42 PM

Hi all,

I think one thing this thread could benefit from is a visual gallery of sorts, like with the pictures that Fernando has already posted. This should help everyone get a better understanding of the swords that we are talking about, as no doubt everyone has a different image of with a specific sword looks like in their mind (I know I personally imagine a swept hilt when thinking of a rapier, but only nebulously imagine the blade as being long, pointy, and thin).

To that extent with a pata I personally have the image of a generic (flat/smooth) gauntlet hilt with a broad blade, as best represented by the first image I've attached below.

To somewhat diverge from my point, I feel like it is necessary to ask: has anyone seen a pata with a definite rapier (super thin & pointy) blade? I feel like the claim that "rapier blades were mounted on patas" can be debunked simply by a lack of physical, documented evidence of the practice. Though of course more swords have been produced in India than have been photographed, it is still valid (I think) to expect at least a couple of these "pata-rapiers" to be documented. More likely I think this is just a case of the previously discussed name-game, with the use of the term "rapier" meant more generically at the time, and only later misinterpreted by us forumites.

As a bit of an exercise, I'd invite everyone to post images of the closest thing to a rapier-bladed pata they can find - whoever finds one mounted with a smallsword blade wins!

Of course then there will no doubt be the argument over how thin a blade can be to still be able to cut well in the "Indian style"

Either way, here's my pick (the second & third images) - a pata with a pretty decently thin tapering blade, allegedly native-made from the 17th century.

Jim McDougall · 4th June 2019, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nihl

Hi all,

I think one thing this thread could benefit from is a visual gallery of sorts, like with the pictures that Fernando has already posted. This should help everyone get a better understanding of the swords that we are talking about, as no doubt everyone has a different image of with a specific sword looks like in their mind (I know I personally imagine a swept hilt when thinking of a rapier, but only nebulously imagine the blade as being long, pointy, and thin).

To that extent with a pata I personally have the image of a generic (flat/smooth) gauntlet hilt with a broad blade, as best represented by the first image I've attached below.

To somewhat diverge from my point, I feel like it is necessary to ask: has anyone seen a pata with a definite rapier (super thin & pointy) blade? I feel like the claim that "rapier blades were mounted on patas" can be debunked simply by a lack of physical, documented evidence of the practice. Though of course more swords have been produced in India than have been photographed, it is still valid (I think) to expect at least a couple of these "pata-rapiers" to be documented. More likely I think this is just a case of the previously discussed name-game, with the use of the term "rapier" meant more generically at the time, and only later misinterpreted by us forumites.

As a bit of an exercise, I'd invite everyone to post images of the closest thing to a rapier-bladed pata they can find - whoever finds one mounted with a smallsword blade wins!

Of course then there will no doubt be the argument over how thin a blade can be to still be able to cut well in the "Indian style"

Either way, here's my pick (the second & third images) - a pata with a pretty decently thin tapering blade, allegedly native-made from the 17th century.

Nihl, its nice to have you posting on this, and thank you for observing and reiterating exactly what I had queried in this thread in the beginning.....were there actually these THIN narrow rapier blades ever used in khanda and pata.

One of the problems we had discussed, was the dilemma of the insistence on occasion of earlier writers using the term rapier (which brings to mind the VERY narrow blades used in civilian examples) to describe blades which were actually heavier 'arming ' blades. While I agree the name game is an aggravating nuisance in many cases, when you are relying on unillustrated written sources it can be most misleading.

If you have noted in the ensuing discussion, this very aspect was the source of considerable consternation, and in my post #19, I added illustrations of one pata with what appears a 'heavy rapier' blade (Rawson, 1969. #22) of the 18th c.; and a drawing of a khanda with VERY narrow rapier blade (Pant, 1980, fig. 54) among four others with wider blades.

I think one of the problems with the term rapier may be that as you note, many have an image of a swept HILT...…..actually the rapier term is referring to the blade, the hilts vary. You are right though, more pictures are helpful .

Thank you for noticing my question and appeal for any examples of these NARROW rapier blades. Many of the aspects concerning this dilemma are included in the text of the entries here, but so far without compelling result.

fernando · 5th June 2019, 03:40 PM

These are the pictures i can recover from the pata i used to have ...
Visibly a field weapon, not one for parade or big shot's show off.
A lenticular blade, not so sharp double edged, one fuller in the first third, slightly tapering towards the end, but not so pointy.
Length 96 cms. width 25 m/m. No marks.
This is to some, what would (could) be called a rapier blade. I will leave it to your discretion.
On a different note, one thing that occurs is that, the smith already has to have the blade in his hands to then design the 'forte' where it is going to be mounted.

.

Jim McDougall · 5th June 2019, 04:35 PM

In keeping with the previous train of thought , Pant (1980, p.70) has noted, "...some of the Indo-British RAPIERS, kept in the Indian museums belonging to the 18-19th c. have LONG HEAVY BLADES and very elaborate guards made up of cups, shells and loops".

Here we see that there are references to heavy blades swords, with elaborate guards made up of cups, shells and loops (rapier hilts?) which are termed 'rapier' probably due to the perception described regarding the 'hilt' but considering the entire sword a 'rapier'.

This is the circumstance I was referring to in application or 'mis-application' of the term in some of the descriptions of rapier blades occurring in khanda and pata.

It appears that Indian smiths were fully capable of producing very narrow blades of rapier type.

Elgood (2004, p.149, 15.11) shows a katar using a cut down European rapier blade.

While such narrow blades were in what I have seen, more of an anomaly, it does seem that some degree of thrusting must have been favored, as per personal preference.

4th June 2019, 08:42 PM	#5
Nihl Member Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 90	Hi all, I think one thing this thread could benefit from is a visual gallery of sorts, like with the pictures that Fernando has already posted. This should help everyone get a better understanding of the swords that we are talking about, as no doubt everyone has a different image of with a specific sword looks like in their mind (I know I personally imagine a swept hilt when thinking of a rapier, but only nebulously imagine the blade as being long, pointy, and thin). To that extent with a pata I personally have the image of a generic (flat/smooth) gauntlet hilt with a broad blade, as best represented by the first image I've attached below. To somewhat diverge from my point, I feel like it is necessary to ask: has anyone seen a pata with a definite rapier (super thin & pointy) blade? I feel like the claim that "rapier blades were mounted on patas" can be debunked simply by a lack of physical, documented evidence of the practice. Though of course more swords have been produced in India than have been photographed, it is still valid (I think) to expect at least a couple of these "pata-rapiers" to be documented. More likely I think this is just a case of the previously discussed name-game, with the use of the term "rapier" meant more generically at the time, and only later misinterpreted by us forumites. As a bit of an exercise, I'd invite everyone to post images of the closest thing to a rapier-bladed pata they can find - whoever finds one mounted with a smallsword blade wins! Of course then there will no doubt be the argument over how thin a blade can be to still be able to cut well in the "Indian style" Either way, here's my pick (the second & third images) - a pata with a pretty decently thin tapering blade, allegedly native-made from the 17th century. Attached Images

5th June 2019, 03:40 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	These are the pictures i can recover from the pata i used to have ... Visibly a field weapon, not one for parade or big shot's show off. A lenticular blade, not so sharp double edged, one fuller in the first third, slightly tapering towards the end, but not so pointy. Length 96 cms. width 25 m/m. No marks. This is to some, what would (could) be called a rapier blade. I will leave it to your discretion. On a different note, one thing that occurs is that, the smith already has to have the blade in his hands to then design the 'forte' where it is going to be mounted. . Attached Images

1st June 2019, 04:52 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Amen to all that, Ariel. I would add to the etymology quiz the suggestion by some dude called Scheler in that, the discussed term comes from the German rappen, raffen = snatch. But, as in its genesis this sword style had about the same parameters in different nations, and their nationals adopted local idiomatic terms to name the thing, even possibly having given it a different use, evolution then followed its path according to each said nation's needs and imagination; civilian, military, cut thrust, whatever. Not wanting to be tagged as a radical, i would not reject the perspective that traditionalists would decline the use of the rapier controversial term, despite the burden to spell out a couple describing words, to let know what they refer to. In the end, the inexorable truth is that, before and after rapiers, swords remain swords. . Attached Images

1st June 2019, 06:43 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	First of all, thank you so much Ibrahiim and Fernando for the kind words. Ariel, thank you for finally capturing exactly what this thread was all about in the beginning, and the dilemma I referred to, which was we could not know with certainty which type of blade was being noted by the authors. It was never about the 'name game' or the almost nonsensical 'firangi' conundrum. The point was (no pun intended) that the point-fence style of swordsmanship was completely unknown to the Indians in the 17th c.(as well noted by Tavernier). As mentioned earlier (and I appreciate the indulgence for the elaborate corpus of cited quotes in my text) Elgood mentioned that the khanda blade was made longer after the arrival of the Europeans. He states this was no doubt to counter the EXTREMELY long blades of the European 'rapiers' This is of course in accord with the notably (and often 'illegally so', as in Spanish legal restrictions) long rapier blades you show Fernando. As can be seen with the pata illustration, this wider broadsword blade, which is distinctly German in form, but curiously has the three central fullers and the moons (dukari) as placed on Saharan blades. This type blade with three fullers is identical to my pata, but mine has astral sun, moon etc. This shows clearly that numbers of German blades which had been likely destined for North African entrepots, seem to have diverted to the Indian ports in the west. In Rawson (1969, #22) is a pata in the V&A museum, 18th c. with this type of 'arming' blade. As noted, these became colloquially associated with the late renaissance period thrusting rapiers, where similar hilts were later mounted with militarily feasible heavier blades. (attached image). In Pant, the plate of khandas I included with five examples (added below)of line drawings, the one on the far left seems to have a thin rapier blade, but this seems an anomaly or perhaps artistic license? Rawson notes (p.23) that blades were intended primarily to cut, and only the Maratha swords influenced by European examples, which were given reinforced edged and basket hilts, seem ever to have bee conceived as parrying weapons. While this suggests that European swordsmanship appears to have had distinct influence on the hilt, with addition of finger guard to complete the basket effect....and the bolstered edges which suggest same to receive blows in parrying.....it still does not seem the thrust was used. Again, this would negate the probable use of the narrow rapier blades. Thank you guys for the additional input, which helps better evaluate this question as posed. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 1st June 2019 at 10:26 PM.

1st June 2019, 06:43 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Agree 100%. And, taking a risk of being chided for not sticking to the topic, the same considerations equally apply to the Katar/jamadhar, Khanda and endless Indonesian controversies. Tribe, tradition and language dictate names. This is why it is so important to flush out original names and try to correlate them with the people who used them. Name is an equivalent of a DNA test.

1st June 2019, 07:04 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Something I have always wanted to do, and Robert Elgood has already done this in a fashion in his glossaries, is to cross reference the various terms used for particular weapon forms. This would especially benefit ethnographic arms study in offering a 'thesaurus' type reference that would present terms in different contexts and languages. Often there are colloquial or vernacular terms for a type, and sometimes the terms are actually general, such as sa'if; khanda; talwar which are technically = sword, but not otherwise specified. The name game is typically counterproductive as incomplete or unreferenced use causes confusion, and the method I often use of parenthesized alternate terms becomes clumsy. However, it still becomes the best method at hand in avoiding semantic misunderstandings for those not necessarily deeply engrained in a topic. While most of us here know and understand these variations, many readers do not, and this impairs the learning potential greatly.

5th June 2019, 04:35 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	In keeping with the previous train of thought , Pant (1980, p.70) has noted, "...some of the Indo-British RAPIERS, kept in the Indian museums belonging to the 18-19th c. have LONG HEAVY BLADES and very elaborate guards made up of cups, shells and loops". Here we see that there are references to heavy blades swords, with elaborate guards made up of cups, shells and loops (rapier hilts?) which are termed 'rapier' probably due to the perception described regarding the 'hilt' but considering the entire sword a 'rapier'. This is the circumstance I was referring to in application or 'mis-application' of the term in some of the descriptions of rapier blades occurring in khanda and pata. It appears that Indian smiths were fully capable of producing very narrow blades of rapier type. Elgood (2004, p.149, 15.11) shows a katar using a cut down European rapier blade. While such narrow blades were in what I have seen, more of an anomaly, it does seem that some degree of thrusting must have been favored, as per personal preference.