A katar is a katar till......

Jens Nordlunde · 31st May 2019, 03:53 PM

Yes Ariel, the reasons for all the different names can be many.
Although Babur only ruled in India from 1526 to 1530 Baburnama tell us, that he amongst other things gave katars/jamdhars as gifts. Quite unusual, as he must have 'adoptet' the katar quickly, or it would not have been mentioned, and strange as other countries did not seem to think highly about the katar.
Another interesting thing is, that in the drawing is shown one katar with a straight blade, but two katars with a curved blade. To day the katars with a straight blade are found like 'sand at the sea', but curved bladed katars are rare.

Jim McDougall · 31st May 2019, 08:45 PM

Jens I very much agree with the approach you are taking to this virtual nonsense which often evolves with the dreaded 'name game' which seems to evolve in discussions here often over as many years as I can recall.

What it amounts to is that as you and I have agreed over as many years, it is important to serious researchers on arms to be aware of the alternate terms for weapons used in the vernaculars and parlance of the people who actually used them.
This is because if we are relying on contemporary narratives and accounts, or translated resources, we must know such terms to be sure we are reading about the same weapon we are researching. Without some sort of cross reference or thesaurus of terms for these weapons, especially by dialect, region or period, accurate investigation is useless.

I can recall being told by a key ethnographic researcher on Indonesian weapons, often the same weapon can be called by different terms almost 'by village'. Exaggerated perhaps, but the same dilemma applies often and widely.

I think that using an accepted term used pretty much universally in the vernacular of students of arms, with 'katar' a prime example, it is probably not only acceptable but advisable that it remain the same. This is so we can be sure semantically that we are talking about the same weapon.
The only thing I would hope would be accepted is that some sort of footnote or cross reference could be established as part of the alternate terms for other serious researchers.
For general conversation obviously, there is no such need. I simply often place such terms in parenthesis for such convenience, but clearly many people think it is too much info.

Jens Nordlunde · 1st June 2019, 09:42 PM

This is not only about the names - it is also about the kater types, with a straight blade or a curved blade.

ariel · 2nd June 2019, 12:45 AM

Well, Jens is correct as usual: perhaps straight-bladed and curved katars were called differently. We just do not know, and I for one would like to.

Nihl · 4th June 2019, 09:01 PM

I agree with Ariel, it's definitely interesting that we have a few odd names (categories) that have survived to today, yet no native terms to distinguish straight and curved katars, even though arguably one of the most basic variations you could make to a katar (blade-wise) is to give it a curved blade.

For reference purposes, the surviving, clearly defined terms I've found are:
Bara Jamdadu - a "hooded" katar
Pattani Jamdadu - a katar with a long, straight (pata-style) blade
Jamdhar Sehlicaneh - a katar with a three pointed blade
Jamdhar Doulicaneh - a katar with a two pointed blade
All of these are recorded by Egerton, along with a number of other weird terms, however the ones listed above are the only ones with clear definitions that seem to have lasted, being reproduced by numerous publications since.

Just some observations.

Jim McDougall · 5th June 2019, 01:36 PM

While this thread was not intended to address the ever contentious 'name game' which ever plagues any serious student of arms study, the Indian 'katar' dagger serves as the perfect analogy, as Jens well illustrates.

As often noted on these pages, the use of the term katar to describe these transverse grip daggers was apparently inadvertently transposed by Egerton (1880) to describe these, when in actuality they were termed 'jamadhar'. This is pointed out by Pant (1980).

As noted, it seems Egerton also used a number of compounded descriptive terms for variations of 'jamadhar' with unusual features, such as multiple blades, or points actually as the blades are cut to create them.

Pant, in his quest to use descriptive terminology to classify Indian weaponry, has in many cases followed suit by compounding the weapon form term with qualifying descriptive terms. While it seems many of these as well as other terms in other weapons may be soundly applied based on his research, many such as the classifications of tulwar hilts for example, seem arbitrarily placed.

Returning to 'jamadhars' (katars) for example, on p.171, Pant illustrates one which has a curious spear (or arrow) point, which seems odd for a dagger.
He does not list any particular name or term for this anomaly, however on p.51. he describes a khanda with this kind of tip (like an arrowhead or lance) as a 'shulagra' (presumably based on shula (=lance). He further compounds the term using places other examples are known added to the shulagra term.

This 'system' of creating compounded terms as well as seemingly arbitrarily placed terms on weapon variations creates a climate of confusion in attempting to determine classifications which appear separate, but in reality are simply variations of certain weapon forms.

These kinds of creative terminology, along with simple transposing or semantics, have unintentionally led to the classification dilemmas and conundrums arms researchers constantly face in study of ethnographic arms.

Having said all this, with regard to the curved katar, this apparently rarely used type blade, while mentioned in Pant (p.170, examples 482, 498. 527) does not seem to warrant a descriptive term.

I have known Jens Nordlund for nearly 20 years, and in that time, have had the opportunity to follow along in his specialized study of the katar, and his amazing collecting of them. I am unaware of anyone with the knowledge on this weapon form that parallels his. If Jens does not know a term for this apparent anomaly on the katar, then I would say, one does not exist.

It is my impression that the katar (again using the common parlance term) was a primarily thrusting weapon. The idea of having these with multiple points or blades is baffling, unless these were intended as perhaps left hand daggers to ensnare opponents blades (as with the spring loaded expanding blades).

The idea of a katar with a curved blade seems equally puzzling, unless it was intended for slashing cuts. Rajputs had chilanum like daggers with jambia like curved blades called khapwah (Elgood, 2004, 16.2, p.163), and as the katar was known of course in the north, possibly curved blades were simply mounted as per personal preference. A convention of curved blade use does not seem to be the case, and likely more a one off anomaly.

ariel · 5th June 2019, 09:09 PM

BTW,
Describing a dagger in his Jaipur book, Elgood casually mentions that it would be called Ch’hura by Rajputs , but that Muslims would called it Khapwa.

Many weapons from tat area have there own names, but on closer look those are reflecting not any specific construction, but rather different ethnicity/ language of the owner.

Mercenary · 7th June 2019, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nihl

Jamdhar Sehlicaneh - a katar with a three pointed blade
Jamdhar Doulicaneh - a katar with a two pointed blade

Thank you. Very well.

Jim McDougall · 7th June 2019, 10:55 PM

Again, these 'katars' (jamadhars, whatever) with often innovative blades such as one point, two point, spring loaded expanding blades, spear/arrow point etc. leave me wondering......just HOW were these supposed to be used?

While the standard methods of slashing cuts, or the thrust (often katar is termed a punch dagger)...seem possible with a normal katar blade, these other anomalies seem to defy logical use methods.

The idea of the spring loaded expanding blades worsening a wound is not feasible typically as it could not expand within the body in any degree, at least as I have understood.
The double or triple points would impair penetration overall, and multiple blades would be even worse for either slash or thrust.

So I wonder just what these unusually bladed weapons were intended for?

5th June 2019, 01:36 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	Curved 'katar' (jamadhar) While this thread was not intended to address the ever contentious 'name game' which ever plagues any serious student of arms study, the Indian 'katar' dagger serves as the perfect analogy, as Jens well illustrates. As often noted on these pages, the use of the term katar to describe these transverse grip daggers was apparently inadvertently transposed by Egerton (1880) to describe these, when in actuality they were termed 'jamadhar'. This is pointed out by Pant (1980). As noted, it seems Egerton also used a number of compounded descriptive terms for variations of 'jamadhar' with unusual features, such as multiple blades, or points actually as the blades are cut to create them. Pant, in his quest to use descriptive terminology to classify Indian weaponry, has in many cases followed suit by compounding the weapon form term with qualifying descriptive terms. While it seems many of these as well as other terms in other weapons may be soundly applied based on his research, many such as the classifications of tulwar hilts for example, seem arbitrarily placed. Returning to 'jamadhars' (katars) for example, on p.171, Pant illustrates one which has a curious spear (or arrow) point, which seems odd for a dagger. He does not list any particular name or term for this anomaly, however on p.51. he describes a khanda with this kind of tip (like an arrowhead or lance) as a 'shulagra' (presumably based on shula (=lance). He further compounds the term using places other examples are known added to the shulagra term. This 'system' of creating compounded terms as well as seemingly arbitrarily placed terms on weapon variations creates a climate of confusion in attempting to determine classifications which appear separate, but in reality are simply variations of certain weapon forms. These kinds of creative terminology, along with simple transposing or semantics, have unintentionally led to the classification dilemmas and conundrums arms researchers constantly face in study of ethnographic arms. Having said all this, with regard to the curved katar, this apparently rarely used type blade, while mentioned in Pant (p.170, examples 482, 498. 527) does not seem to warrant a descriptive term. I have known Jens Nordlund for nearly 20 years, and in that time, have had the opportunity to follow along in his specialized study of the katar, and his amazing collecting of them. I am unaware of anyone with the knowledge on this weapon form that parallels his. If Jens does not know a term for this apparent anomaly on the katar, then I would say, one does not exist. It is my impression that the katar (again using the common parlance term) was a primarily thrusting weapon. The idea of having these with multiple points or blades is baffling, unless these were intended as perhaps left hand daggers to ensnare opponents blades (as with the spring loaded expanding blades). The idea of a katar with a curved blade seems equally puzzling, unless it was intended for slashing cuts. Rajputs had chilanum like daggers with jambia like curved blades called khapwah (Elgood, 2004, 16.2, p.163), and as the katar was known of course in the north, possibly curved blades were simply mounted as per personal preference. A convention of curved blade use does not seem to be the case, and likely more a one off anomaly.

31st May 2019, 03:53 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes Ariel, the reasons for all the different names can be many. Although Babur only ruled in India from 1526 to 1530 Baburnama tell us, that he amongst other things gave katars/jamdhars as gifts. Quite unusual, as he must have 'adoptet' the katar quickly, or it would not have been mentioned, and strange as other countries did not seem to think highly about the katar. Another interesting thing is, that in the drawing is shown one katar with a straight blade, but two katars with a curved blade. To day the katars with a straight blade are found like 'sand at the sea', but curved bladed katars are rare.

31st May 2019, 08:45 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	Jens I very much agree with the approach you are taking to this virtual nonsense which often evolves with the dreaded 'name game' which seems to evolve in discussions here often over as many years as I can recall. What it amounts to is that as you and I have agreed over as many years, it is important to serious researchers on arms to be aware of the alternate terms for weapons used in the vernaculars and parlance of the people who actually used them. This is because if we are relying on contemporary narratives and accounts, or translated resources, we must know such terms to be sure we are reading about the same weapon we are researching. Without some sort of cross reference or thesaurus of terms for these weapons, especially by dialect, region or period, accurate investigation is useless. I can recall being told by a key ethnographic researcher on Indonesian weapons, often the same weapon can be called by different terms almost 'by village'. Exaggerated perhaps, but the same dilemma applies often and widely. I think that using an accepted term used pretty much universally in the vernacular of students of arms, with 'katar' a prime example, it is probably not only acceptable but advisable that it remain the same. This is so we can be sure semantically that we are talking about the same weapon. The only thing I would hope would be accepted is that some sort of footnote or cross reference could be established as part of the alternate terms for other serious researchers. For general conversation obviously, there is no such need. I simply often place such terms in parenthesis for such convenience, but clearly many people think it is too much info.

1st June 2019, 09:42 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	This is not only about the names - it is also about the kater types, with a straight blade or a curved blade.

2nd June 2019, 12:45 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, Jens is correct as usual: perhaps straight-bladed and curved katars were called differently. We just do not know, and I for one would like to.

4th June 2019, 09:01 PM	#5
Nihl Member Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 90	I agree with Ariel, it's definitely interesting that we have a few odd names (categories) that have survived to today, yet no native terms to distinguish straight and curved katars, even though arguably one of the most basic variations you could make to a katar (blade-wise) is to give it a curved blade. For reference purposes, the surviving, clearly defined terms I've found are: Bara Jamdadu - a "hooded" katar Pattani Jamdadu - a katar with a long, straight (pata-style) blade Jamdhar Sehlicaneh - a katar with a three pointed blade Jamdhar Doulicaneh - a katar with a two pointed blade All of these are recorded by Egerton, along with a number of other weird terms, however the ones listed above are the only ones with clear definitions that seem to have lasted, being reproduced by numerous publications since. Just some observations.

5th June 2019, 09:09 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	BTW, Describing a dagger in his Jaipur book, Elgood casually mentions that it would be called Ch’hura by Rajputs , but that Muslims would called it Khapwa. Many weapons from tat area have there own names, but on closer look those are reflecting not any specific construction, but rather different ethnicity/ language of the owner.

7th June 2019, 10:55 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	Again, these 'katars' (jamadhars, whatever) with often innovative blades such as one point, two point, spring loaded expanding blades, spear/arrow point etc. leave me wondering......just HOW were these supposed to be used? While the standard methods of slashing cuts, or the thrust (often katar is termed a punch dagger)...seem possible with a normal katar blade, these other anomalies seem to defy logical use methods. The idea of the spring loaded expanding blades worsening a wound is not feasible typically as it could not expand within the body in any degree, at least as I have understood. The double or triple points would impair penetration overall, and multiple blades would be even worse for either slash or thrust. So I wonder just what these unusually bladed weapons were intended for?