The use of European RAPIER blades in Maratha Pata and Khanda swords

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Jim, your resilience in the rapier blade saga is no more than mine in opposing some points i find hard to digest in it. They say one can only be a stubborn if his neighbor also is .
Let me start by the Khanda. I now you have a vast library in your bookmobile and a heavy luggage of knowledge; whereas i only have two or three publications and an incipient experience, comparing to yours.
I will not put in my own wording my questioning your certainty towards the "whatever rapier blade format" fitting Indian blades, as well as their function. Instead i will bring a few authors to the stage, those i am sure you do know for ages, with the difference that i am potentially misinterpreting their texts.




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Fernando, the rapier blade in Indian swords 'dilemma' is one that I think requires a certain tenacity to resolve, and I think you and I share in stubbornness in looking at these kinds of matters. As Bob had mentioned on the thread where this rapier thing evolved, we have to keep an open mind as we investigate and discuss these topics.

Actually most of my 'vast' library is not here in the bookmobile, especially not STONE...….whose weight would certainly exceed the payload in this thing!

Thank you for your support in looking into this dilemma on rapier blades in India, and beginning with the khanda. I looked into "Arts of the Muslim Knight" ( B.Mohammed, ed. , Furissiya, 2009) and on p.24 notes,
"...very long thin blades single or double edged were also useful thrusting weapons, particularly for piercing armor. Such a sword worn in tandem with a sabre, is depicted on a 9th-10th c painting of a mounted warrior at Nishapur, but no Islamic double edged blades of this type survive before the Mamluk period. A unique late Timurid blade and an Ottoman sword with a tughra of Murad III( 1574-95) however give us some idea of the type in Europe known as estoc and which the Ottomans call mej."
The blades seemed to average around 100cm (36-39") .
Long thrusting blades remained in use in Europe, these were typically worn under the saddle ('tuck') and western blades or "...imitations of them were popular in India in the 16th and 17th c. They were known by the name 'firangi'".

In looking at the khanda, it seems like the blades 'typically' end in spatulate (pattisa) and rebated or rounded tips, so the idea of slashing rather than thrusting does seem characteristic . The khanda itself was a very early sword type of course, which was revamped in the 17th century as the 'Hindu basket hilt', but its use extended from not only Marathas, but to Rajputs, Sikhs and Mughals.
In Pant, there is another plate of khandas (attached here) where the thin rapier blade can be seen.
Also from "Arts of the Muslim Knight" (#66) attached is a picture of another khanda (firangi?) which is identified as a sabre(shamshir) ? and as a 'long sword with flexible blade for stabbing and thrusting'. While this is of course a 'basket hilt', it is clearly Mughal, as the inscriptions in koftgari are in naskh.

It would seem that obviously there were occasions for these 'basket hilt' swords, typically with extraordinarily long (over 3 ft. blades to nearly 4ft.) to have thin, flexible, narrow blades as in 'rapier'.
Clearly the Ottomans had some use for such thrusting blades, and India was not without influences from them.

Is it possible that these 'rapier' type bladed swords were secondary to other weapons and used as a 'tuck' (estoc) as required? With the notion of a secondary or auxiliary weapon seeming questionable, we are aware of maces which also have 'khanda' hilts. Perhaps the same concept of 'as required' weaponry being employed by the warrior, with several options?

Turning to the pata (gauntlet sword), it is often noted these used from horseback as a lance. Obviously that would seem improbable as the rider would be unhorsed with the weapon lodged in a victim. However, lances were not typically used as impaling weapons, but stabbing, thus the rider does not lose use of the weapon.

It would seem that these narrow blades on khanda or pata, though relatively unusual, would be used in similar fashion, stabbing, not run through thrusting.