Jamdhar katari - a theory

ariel · 30th May 2019, 03:56 AM

Jim,
You have perfectly described the course of any freewheeling discussion: they tend to veer off in unexpected directions and then happily return back on track. This is one of the charming features of this Forum, although sometimes it may get rather annoying.

Steady as she goes, boys!

Jim McDougall · 30th May 2019, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Jim,
You have perfectly described the course of any freewheeling discussion: they tend to veer off in unexpected directions and then happily return back on track. This is one of the charming features of this Forum, although sometimes it may get rather annoying.

Steady as she goes, boys!

Roger that Ariel!!! I like that ….'freewheeling'

Actually I'm Ok with that idea, but sometimes some really good stuff, like this rapier blades on patas thing, get lost under the heading jamadhar kitari.

Actually I've been learning a lot on that as Ive kept researching it, and have found khandas with what appear to be rapier blades, and that patas did have them too. Years ago I read somewhere that Marathas disdained the thrust and only subscribed to slashing cuts...……..it sure would appear that's wrong.
So there's the beauty of conflict and different views...…..there are things to be learned. …..possibly this becomes a topic for its own thread.

Regardless, I see your point, and well stated.
Steady on boys

Bob A · 30th May 2019, 05:33 AM

This thread opened on a speculative note, and seems to have benefited from observations and excursions into the surrounding thoughtscape. One never knows what piece of information might strike a spark and illuminate the darkness, or what might be found therein.

Tangential byways sometimes lead to serendipitous discoveries, though I hasten to admit that Serendip is probably too southerly to be considered relevant to the subject(s) herein under discussion.

Jim McDougall · 30th May 2019, 02:28 PM

Tangential byways sometimes lead to serendipitous discoveries, though I hasten to admit that Serendip is probably too southerly to be considered relevant to the subject(s) herein under discussion.[/QUOTE]

LOL! VERY cleverly put Bob!

I am glad we all agree that certain expansions and tangents in a discussion can often lead to key discoveries on a particular subject which may not have otherwise be found. I know that in research I have often found answers in unrelated places, almost in a bizarre circumstance at times...…..and indeed in the 'Serendip' realm.

Personally I feel I am learning a lot from our discussion here, and before returning to the jamadhar-kitari, I wanted to note that the 'rapier' excursion has revealed that some of my perceptions on these blades being used in khanda and pata were apparently patently incorrect.

Much of this derived from some 'chestnut' I read somewhere that claimed that the Marathas in swordsmanship despised the thrust, and preferred slashing cuts alone. That was clearly not entirely true as I have been finding references which not only pictured and noted rapier blades on these weapons, but clearly compelled the fact that they must have been used for thrusting. On that note I am opening a separate thread on this topic.

Returning to the jamadhar-kitari (KATARAH) , a line illustration of one of these is depicted in Pant ("Indian Arms & Armour", 1980, p.174, fig. 532) where Pant refers to the Egerton (1880, p.102) entries noting these as daggers of the Kafirs of Hindu Kush. Here Pant suggests these daggers were actually popular all over North India and Nepal from 16th through 18th centuries.
Here Pant further attributes this material to Stone (1934, p.314, fig. 398).

I would note here that this diffusion of the form is of course not surprising, as we have discussed the disparity between the animist/Hindu religion of the Kafir and related tribes of the Hindu Kush regions and the Muslim regime intent on subduing them. The diaspora of these tribes surely carried to form widely in many directions.

Mercenary · 10th October 2019, 07:18 PM

In the 16th century in India there were a lot of not only tigers

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 10th October 2019, 07:49 PM

Reference;
A. http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio...stan/chilanum/
B. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17459

The webpage at Reference A gives a great summary on this weapon and the people who used it. The web page illustrates the weapon below against a grey background and hilt at the top...as being a single piece molding rather than a pinned blade...

The weapon below with the spear shaped blade is from Reference B. which also gives a fascinating word terminology of its meaning at #18 which I must place here in full by bhushan_lawate . Six Years Ago !

The "Jamdhar" is a loose distortion of "Yamadaushtra" and evolved in the following way:

1. Yama (Lord of death per the Hindus) + Daushtra (tooth in Sanskrit)

which became - Yama + Dadh or "Jamdhad"

which is now "Jamdhar"

It is also used synonymous to Katars in some places in India.

10th October 2019, 07:18 PM	#5
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	In the 16th century in India there were a lot of not only tigers Attached Images

10th October 2019, 07:49 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Reference; A. http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio...stan/chilanum/ B. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17459 The webpage at Reference A gives a great summary on this weapon and the people who used it. The web page illustrates the weapon below against a grey background and hilt at the top...as being a single piece molding rather than a pinned blade... The weapon below with the spear shaped blade is from Reference B. which also gives a fascinating word terminology of its meaning at #18 which I must place here in full by bhushan_lawate . Six Years Ago ! The "Jamdhar" is a loose distortion of "Yamadaushtra" and evolved in the following way: 1. Yama (Lord of death per the Hindus) + Daushtra (tooth in Sanskrit) which became - Yama + Dadh or "Jamdhad" which is now "Jamdhar" It is also used synonymous to Katars in some places in India. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 10th October 2019 at 08:04 PM.

30th May 2019, 03:56 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, You have perfectly described the course of any freewheeling discussion: they tend to veer off in unexpected directions and then happily return back on track. This is one of the charming features of this Forum, although sometimes it may get rather annoying. Steady as she goes, boys!

30th May 2019, 05:33 AM	#3
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 436	This thread opened on a speculative note, and seems to have benefited from observations and excursions into the surrounding thoughtscape. One never knows what piece of information might strike a spark and illuminate the darkness, or what might be found therein. Tangential byways sometimes lead to serendipitous discoveries, though I hasten to admit that Serendip is probably too southerly to be considered relevant to the subject(s) herein under discussion.

30th May 2019, 02:28 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Tangential byways sometimes lead to serendipitous discoveries, though I hasten to admit that Serendip is probably too southerly to be considered relevant to the subject(s) herein under discussion.[/QUOTE] LOL! VERY cleverly put Bob! I am glad we all agree that certain expansions and tangents in a discussion can often lead to key discoveries on a particular subject which may not have otherwise be found. I know that in research I have often found answers in unrelated places, almost in a bizarre circumstance at times...…..and indeed in the 'Serendip' realm. Personally I feel I am learning a lot from our discussion here, and before returning to the jamadhar-kitari, I wanted to note that the 'rapier' excursion has revealed that some of my perceptions on these blades being used in khanda and pata were apparently patently incorrect. Much of this derived from some 'chestnut' I read somewhere that claimed that the Marathas in swordsmanship despised the thrust, and preferred slashing cuts alone. That was clearly not entirely true as I have been finding references which not only pictured and noted rapier blades on these weapons, but clearly compelled the fact that they must have been used for thrusting. On that note I am opening a separate thread on this topic. Returning to the jamadhar-kitari (KATARAH) , a line illustration of one of these is depicted in Pant ("Indian Arms & Armour", 1980, p.174, fig. 532) where Pant refers to the Egerton (1880, p.102) entries noting these as daggers of the Kafirs of Hindu Kush. Here Pant suggests these daggers were actually popular all over North India and Nepal from 16th through 18th centuries. Here Pant further attributes this material to Stone (1934, p.314, fig. 398). I would note here that this diffusion of the form is of course not surprising, as we have discussed the disparity between the animist/Hindu religion of the Kafir and related tribes of the Hindu Kush regions and the Muslim regime intent on subduing them. The diaspora of these tribes surely carried to form widely in many directions.