New Keris for info

David · 18th May 2019, 01:29 AM

I had assumed this was indeed a more contemporary blade Jean, and can't really use that as a criticism against this keris. I don't think Marius presented it as an antique. I just find it beautiful and well crafted.
As for the dress it is presented in, yes Alan, we can indeed find keris in old keris dress associated with other areas. But what we have here is a keris panjang that you see as possibly having Javanese origins dressed in a Palembang sheath with a Malaysian Tajong hilt. Firstly tajong keris have their own cultural norms as to the form of the sheath as well as the type of blade they contain. So now we have this Malay hilt form on a keris panjang. The panjang is in a Palembang sheath that is of the panjang type so if it is fitted properly i think we can consider that a good match. But this is not an regular keris. Unless i understand the form incorrectly a keris panjang designates a certain status, does it not? Certainly we do find genuine, old, highly regarded keris in a mixture of dress, but where would a status keris like a panjang be considered appropriate with a tajong hilt? It seems far more likely to me that this keris was dressed with what was available in the dealer's closet than for any authentic usage. I would still be looking for a replacement hilt if it were mine, but it is still a nice keris to look at as is.

A. G. Maisey · 18th May 2019, 02:20 AM

David, I have absolutely no critisism of this keris at all.

None.

The blade is indeed finely crafted. No dispute about that at all.

Yes, it could be a dealer's montage, and in this day and age, that applies to many more things than just keris, and it possibly goes without saying that with virtually everything we look we need to have this idea in the back of our minds as we look.

Yes, in the society of origin, the keris panjang probably did have a status level attached to it, but did this status level transfer, along with the keris form, to other societies where the form appears? In so far as Central Jawa is concerned, I can pretty definitely say that it did not.

In respect of this particular complete keris, my assumption is that it has been put together at some time during the last 100 years, it certainly does not look pre-1900 to me.

If that is the case, I personally would be reluctant to tag this keris as anything other than what we can see. I would not assume a dealer's meddling, I would not assume the actions of a private owner in a keris bearing society, nor would I assume the tastes of a collector.

To me this keris is exactly as it is, and able to be described in terms of its individual elements. Anything other than that is pure assumption.

Then, of course, we have the long and continuing association of Palembang with Central Jawa. I personally do not find it strange for a blade from anywhere at all to be presented in Palembang dress.

But is this dress Palembang? To me, it looks Palembangish, ie a Sumatran style of dress that has some echoes of Palembang, and the hilt also looks more like an echo than an original --- not that I am specialist in this field of Sumatra, nor of kingfisher hilts, so don't take these comments of mine as being even verging upon gospel. Perhaps others may care to look just a whisker more closely at the images?

Jean · 18th May 2019, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

But is this dress Palembang? To me, it looks Palembangish, ie a Sumatran style of dress that has some echoes of Palembang, and the hilt also looks more like an echo than an original --- not that I am specialist in this field of Sumatra, nor of kingfisher hilts, so don't take these comments of mine as being even verging upon gospel. Perhaps others may care to look just a whisker more closely at the images?

Yes, Palembangish sarong, Tagongish hilt, newish panjangish/ Javanish blade, and tambalish pamor!

A nice piece but not suitable for an old-fashioned colector like myself...
Regards

Sajen · 28th May 2019, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

A nice piece but not suitable for an old-fashioned colector like myself...

Have to say the same for myself. I think that the keris in question was created in Madura. Like said, not my cup of tea. And I doubt a little bit the age of 40 years.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 28th May 2019, 10:29 PM

Perceptive Detlef, but it is wise not to forget that Madura is a part of East Jawa, and these days, connected by a bridge. Things that at one time might have been thought of in exclusively Madura terms, have, for as long as I have been going to Jawa, and for a considerable period prior to that, perhaps have been better thought of as 'Jawa Timur'.

David, I am not suggesting that this keris under discussion is not just as you comment. However, in respect of these kingfisher hilts appearing on blades other than one specific form, and with scabbards other than one specific form, I have had, and I think I still do have, examples of complete keris that have been together for lengthy periods of time and that do have this hilt form coupled with other than the correct component parts. The combination in mine, and in others I have seen, is usually with a Bugis style wrongko, and at least in mine, with the hilt firmly in place but back to front.

David · 29th May 2019, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, I am not suggesting that this keris under discussion is not just as you comment. However, in respect of these kingfisher hilts appearing on blades other than one specific form, and with scabbards other than one specific form, I have had, and I think I still do have, examples of complete keris that have been together for lengthy periods of time and that do have this hilt form coupled with other than the correct component parts. The combination in mine, and in others I have seen, is usually with a Bugis style wrongko, and at least in mine, with the hilt firmly in place but back to front.

Alan, i have no doubt that you have keris with a Bugis style wrongko and a tajong hilt. I have also occasionally seen such a combination, though the vast majority of tajong keris i have seen use the more traditional sheath form. And you must admit that just because such a combo may have been married for some time there is no telling exactly how and why this came to be or if such a keris was ever worn in a cultural way or if it simple came together this way in a dealer's back room. I realize that for both you and myself, Keris of the Malaysian Peninsula and Southern Thailand are not our focus of attention, but if you have paid any attention at all to our Malaysian membership on the topic, Tajong is a bit of a serious business and Malaysians tend to be rather critical of such "misinformed" combinations as well as tajong hilts that are made outside if the Peninsula. In fact some seem to view these Jawa and Madura carved tajong as a bit of cultural appropriation. Most tajong keris i have seen that are considered by Malaysian collectors as "real" are indeed dressed with the more traditional sheath and the majority tend to have pandai saras blades, though sometimes some other form of Malay blades do often appear. Though never have i seen such a combo with a panjang. Yes, we all know that strange things do indeed happen across the archipelago, but i don't see how informing Marius of the oddness of such a combination is incorrect simply because sometimes odd combination happen, especially since everything seems to point to the unlikelihood that his combination was ever one that would have been serviceable in a societal context.
I know you are aware of what the proper tajong dress looks like, but here is a link for those who may be wondering.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=tajong

A. G. Maisey · 29th May 2019, 02:05 AM

Agreed.

David · 18th May 2019, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, I have absolutely no critisism of this keris at all.

None.

The blade is indeed finely crafted. No dispute about that at all.

Yes, in the society of origin, the keris panjang probably did have a status level attached to it, but did this status level transfer, along with the keris form, to other societies where the form appears? In so far as Central Jawa is concerned, I can pretty definitely say that it did not.

Alan, do i understand you correctly to say that keris panjang from Central Jawa made post 1850 and in the PBX era did not have any special societal applications as it did in Sumatra? Just anybody would order and carry a keris panjang in that society and time?
BTW, when i spoke of criticism of the blade i was directing my comment specifically to Jean's comments, not your own.

Frankly you seem far more generous with possible age than i would be here. to my eye this blade, though finely crafted, seems more likely to be a contemporary one, though, of course, an in-hand examination might make me decide otherwise. And if, as Jean and yourself point out, "the Palembangish sarong, Tagongish hilt, newish panjangish/ Javanish blade, and tambalish pamor", it seems far more likely to be that this ensemble came together more recently than not. 100 years ago i do not believe people were carving "Tagongish" hilts, were as today we find many carvers in both Madura and Jawa having a go at that style. Though admittedly i am not enough of an aficionado of tajong style to know if this hilt is a true Tajong hilt or not.

kai · 18th May 2019, 10:40 PM

This is not a genuine Tajong hilt - very likely an Indo copy.

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 18th May 2019, 11:22 PM

Pretty much so David.

During the PBX era, and I think beginning perhaps a little before that, those in the upper levels of society were collecting keris art, and weapon art. Pakubuwana X himself was a very enthusiastic collector, he liked unusual hilts, unusual keris, and he had his palace craftsmen copy weapons from Europe, the Indian Sub-Continent, and other places.

There is no place in Javanese society for a keris that falls outside the normal mode of wear. A great long keris that was unable to be worn in a style that was regarded as acceptable in Javanese society had no place in that society. Javanese nobles could not wander around the streets skewering people lower down in the societal hierarchy in order to test their new kerises, as reportedly the nobles of old Malaya did.

So, although there definitely were long keris made in Central Jawa, they did not form a part of the dress code.

It was not a matter of "just anybody" who could possess a long keris, it was more a matter of who had sufficient disposable income to own a keris for which there was purpose other than to make the possessor feel good. Pretty much the way we operate today. In 19th century Jawa, the whole thing of weapons as art and collectables appears to have begun in the kraton, and from there was picked up by others lower down in the pecking order.

The pamor on this keris is not a pamor that resembles a tambal pamor, it is a tambal pamor, and one of the names for the pamor contained in the applied patches is "koro welang", others might give it as "pandan iris", and there are possibly other names in use also.

However, the component parts of the dress seem to me to resemble the representative styles rather than to be authentic productions of those styles.

As to age of the blade, and separately, age of the complete keris.

I do not consider that I have been generous with my estimate of age, I have given a window of 100 years , beginning yesterday and continuing backwards for 100 years or so. That 100 years encompasses the revival period, which began in about 1975 and was in full swing by the 1980's.

I regard "current era" as the period that is identified by some as "Kemardikan" . I personally do not like this designation of Kemardikan, and if I'm out of step with most others, so be it.

If we are to place origin of this blade into Jawa, we need to identify a possible place of origin, and I cannot. If we regard Madura as a part of Jawa, yes, we can identify a possible place of origin. But I am reluctant to give this keris as a Madura, current era production, for the simple reason that I have not seen a similar keris that I knew had been produced in Madura, and this is the benchmark that I personally use when I give something as "Madura, current era". I prefer to be conservative, rather than to say something is so when I it might not be so.

However, all that said, the surface of this blade does look a lot like a blade that has been treated during the current era.

As to age of the dress. I'm not particularly interested in this. No matter when the dress was made, it is no more than something to house the keris. I doubt that the hilt and wrongko come from the geographic locations that generated these styles, but my measure of their desirability would be their quality, and I cannot really judge this from a photograph.

If one is an antique collector who likes keris, well, obviously the age and authenticity of dress is important, but if one is a collector and student of the keris, age and authenticity of dress comes a very distant second --- something to be considered , perhaps, and often, not even that.

mariusgmioc · 19th May 2019, 10:53 AM

Thank you very much for this very interesting and very educative discussion!

kayoba84 · 28th May 2019, 03:18 AM

Greetings guys,

I tend to agree with Kai. Am pretty sure that the Tajong hilt is an Indonesian copy, and thus, fairly current.

mariusgmioc · 28th May 2019, 10:49 AM

Thank you for all the comments!

I am a novice in terms of knowledge about the keris. However, I noticed very often that kerises we see today are in most cases mixtures of different elements and influences, to the point it becomes very difficult to point the origin of a keris. So, we have "Balinese" kerises that are in fact Javanese but in a Balinese dress, we have "Buginese" kerises made in Solo and so on...

So a Sumatran keris with a Tajong style hilt, shouldn't come as a surprise.

Or am I wrong in my conclusion as it is based on my ignorance and a flawed observation?!

PS: I am certain this is a fairly new keris (maybe around 50-60 years old as it was in a collection for the last 40+ years).

18th May 2019, 02:20 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	David, I have absolutely no critisism of this keris at all. None. The blade is indeed finely crafted. No dispute about that at all. Yes, it could be a dealer's montage, and in this day and age, that applies to many more things than just keris, and it possibly goes without saying that with virtually everything we look we need to have this idea in the back of our minds as we look. Yes, in the society of origin, the keris panjang probably did have a status level attached to it, but did this status level transfer, along with the keris form, to other societies where the form appears? In so far as Central Jawa is concerned, I can pretty definitely say that it did not. In respect of this particular complete keris, my assumption is that it has been put together at some time during the last 100 years, it certainly does not look pre-1900 to me. If that is the case, I personally would be reluctant to tag this keris as anything other than what we can see. I would not assume a dealer's meddling, I would not assume the actions of a private owner in a keris bearing society, nor would I assume the tastes of a collector. To me this keris is exactly as it is, and able to be described in terms of its individual elements. Anything other than that is pure assumption. Then, of course, we have the long and continuing association of Palembang with Central Jawa. I personally do not find it strange for a blade from anywhere at all to be presented in Palembang dress. But is this dress Palembang? To me, it looks Palembangish, ie a Sumatran style of dress that has some echoes of Palembang, and the hilt also looks more like an echo than an original --- not that I am specialist in this field of Sumatra, nor of kingfisher hilts, so don't take these comments of mine as being even verging upon gospel. Perhaps others may care to look just a whisker more closely at the images? Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 18th May 2019 at 08:10 AM. Reason: grammar

28th May 2019, 03:18 AM	#12
kayoba84 Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia Posts: 9	New Keris for info Greetings guys, I tend to agree with Kai. Am pretty sure that the Tajong hilt is an Indonesian copy, and thus, fairly current.

18th May 2019, 01:29 AM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	I had assumed this was indeed a more contemporary blade Jean, and can't really use that as a criticism against this keris. I don't think Marius presented it as an antique. I just find it beautiful and well crafted. As for the dress it is presented in, yes Alan, we can indeed find keris in old keris dress associated with other areas. But what we have here is a keris panjang that you see as possibly having Javanese origins dressed in a Palembang sheath with a Malaysian Tajong hilt. Firstly tajong keris have their own cultural norms as to the form of the sheath as well as the type of blade they contain. So now we have this Malay hilt form on a keris panjang. The panjang is in a Palembang sheath that is of the panjang type so if it is fitted properly i think we can consider that a good match. But this is not an regular keris. Unless i understand the form incorrectly a keris panjang designates a certain status, does it not? Certainly we do find genuine, old, highly regarded keris in a mixture of dress, but where would a status keris like a panjang be considered appropriate with a tajong hilt? It seems far more likely to me that this keris was dressed with what was available in the dealer's closet than for any authentic usage. I would still be looking for a replacement hilt if it were mine, but it is still a nice keris to look at as is.

28th May 2019, 10:29 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Perceptive Detlef, but it is wise not to forget that Madura is a part of East Jawa, and these days, connected by a bridge. Things that at one time might have been thought of in exclusively Madura terms, have, for as long as I have been going to Jawa, and for a considerable period prior to that, perhaps have been better thought of as 'Jawa Timur'. David, I am not suggesting that this keris under discussion is not just as you comment. However, in respect of these kingfisher hilts appearing on blades other than one specific form, and with scabbards other than one specific form, I have had, and I think I still do have, examples of complete keris that have been together for lengthy periods of time and that do have this hilt form coupled with other than the correct component parts. The combination in mine, and in others I have seen, is usually with a Bugis style wrongko, and at least in mine, with the hilt firmly in place but back to front.

29th May 2019, 02:05 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Agreed.

18th May 2019, 10:40 PM	#9
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	This is not a genuine Tajong hilt - very likely an Indo copy. Regards, Kai

18th May 2019, 11:22 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Pretty much so David. During the PBX era, and I think beginning perhaps a little before that, those in the upper levels of society were collecting keris art, and weapon art. Pakubuwana X himself was a very enthusiastic collector, he liked unusual hilts, unusual keris, and he had his palace craftsmen copy weapons from Europe, the Indian Sub-Continent, and other places. There is no place in Javanese society for a keris that falls outside the normal mode of wear. A great long keris that was unable to be worn in a style that was regarded as acceptable in Javanese society had no place in that society. Javanese nobles could not wander around the streets skewering people lower down in the societal hierarchy in order to test their new kerises, as reportedly the nobles of old Malaya did. So, although there definitely were long keris made in Central Jawa, they did not form a part of the dress code. It was not a matter of "just anybody" who could possess a long keris, it was more a matter of who had sufficient disposable income to own a keris for which there was purpose other than to make the possessor feel good. Pretty much the way we operate today. In 19th century Jawa, the whole thing of weapons as art and collectables appears to have begun in the kraton, and from there was picked up by others lower down in the pecking order. The pamor on this keris is not a pamor that resembles a tambal pamor, it is a tambal pamor, and one of the names for the pamor contained in the applied patches is "koro welang", others might give it as "pandan iris", and there are possibly other names in use also. However, the component parts of the dress seem to me to resemble the representative styles rather than to be authentic productions of those styles. As to age of the blade, and separately, age of the complete keris. I do not consider that I have been generous with my estimate of age, I have given a window of 100 years , beginning yesterday and continuing backwards for 100 years or so. That 100 years encompasses the revival period, which began in about 1975 and was in full swing by the 1980's. I regard "current era" as the period that is identified by some as "Kemardikan" . I personally do not like this designation of Kemardikan, and if I'm out of step with most others, so be it. If we are to place origin of this blade into Jawa, we need to identify a possible place of origin, and I cannot. If we regard Madura as a part of Jawa, yes, we can identify a possible place of origin. But I am reluctant to give this keris as a Madura, current era production, for the simple reason that I have not seen a similar keris that I knew had been produced in Madura, and this is the benchmark that I personally use when I give something as "Madura, current era". I prefer to be conservative, rather than to say something is so when I it might not be so. However, all that said, the surface of this blade does look a lot like a blade that has been treated during the current era. As to age of the dress. I'm not particularly interested in this. No matter when the dress was made, it is no more than something to house the keris. I doubt that the hilt and wrongko come from the geographic locations that generated these styles, but my measure of their desirability would be their quality, and I cannot really judge this from a photograph. If one is an antique collector who likes keris, well, obviously the age and authenticity of dress is important, but if one is a collector and student of the keris, age and authenticity of dress comes a very distant second --- something to be considered , perhaps, and often, not even that.

19th May 2019, 10:53 AM	#11
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Thank you very much for this very interesting and very educative discussion!

28th May 2019, 10:49 AM	#13
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Thank you for all the comments! I am a novice in terms of knowledge about the keris. However, I noticed very often that kerises we see today are in most cases mixtures of different elements and influences, to the point it becomes very difficult to point the origin of a keris. So, we have "Balinese" kerises that are in fact Javanese but in a Balinese dress, we have "Buginese" kerises made in Solo and so on... So a Sumatran keris with a Tajong style hilt, shouldn't come as a surprise. Or am I wrong in my conclusion as it is based on my ignorance and a flawed observation?! PS: I am certain this is a fairly new keris (maybe around 50-60 years old as it was in a collection for the last 40+ years).