Identifying Pamor for a First Keris

David · 12th May 2019, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I can see very little, if anything, of Bali in this blade. I do not see a current era blade, and I am inclined to the assumption that it is very probably of Lombok origin.

The wood in this scabbard would be impossible to obtain at the present time, and even another type of wood that was equal in quality would also be somewhere between difficult and impossible to obtain. This is nice dress on this keris, and it should be retained.

While i did at first suggest this keris might be "more" contemporary than not i did not intend to express that i thought it was new and i do agree with both Alan and Jean that it is not post WWII. I was think more early 20th century, but i am certainly willing to concede to more expert eyes that it may be older and yes, probably from Lombok.

As i mentioned before, this type of timoho pelet wood is considered very desirable. I would like to double down with Alan here and suggest that you not change out the dress on this keris. Despite the difficulties you would face trying to bring the keris both in and then out of Indonesia i definitely believe this dress is both appropriate for this blade as well as worth saving. You should not have too much difficulty adjusting the blade to fit better, especially if the stem is already disconnected from the top sheath. I also don't really see any indication in your photos that the uwer (again, it is not a mendak

) is hopelessly damaged. It should also clean up nicely with some scrubbing with a soft toothbrush.
I cannot emphasis more that as someone new to keri ownership it would be in your best interest to learn more about it before acting upon both cleaning and repair.

Henk · 12th May 2019, 08:42 PM

I do agree with David and Alan.

And please, don't sleep with a keris under your pillow again. And if you insist to do, do it without the scabbard and wrap the blade in a white cloth.
Now you damaged the sheath

By the way it is a beauty. Well done for a first keris. Follow the advices for cleaning and repair given here and leave it as it is.

QuisUtDeus · 13th May 2019, 05:03 AM

Haha! Ok, ok, you've all convinced me. I've got a day off tomorrow. I'll go the hardware store to get some carpenter's glue. I'll finish the cleaning, too.

I remembered today that my uncle in Manila was a chemical engineer. I doubt he would have trouble finding the proper arsenic. We could use native, freshly cut limes. It wouldn't be troublesome to bring the keris to Manila for staining.

My uncle's retirement hobby is woodworking. It would be fun to make a new scabbard and handle just for a fun project. I could then claim proper keris addiction. This is all assuming he doesn't get a bad vibe from the blade like my friend and ban it from his house.

I'm very happy you all think the blade is pre-WWII! The seller was a property liquidator who said that the keris belonged to a deceased consulate to Saudi Arabia, whose son was being commited to a nursing home. I was hoping the keris was old enough to be smithed the ritual way.

If this energy I am feeling is normal for a ritually smithed keris, I am very excited! I already have two purchases lined up from one of the collectors on this forum. They're beautiful. I wouldn't alter them.

I've found a bunch of mystical thread topics. I'll go bother those guys with the spirit stuff!

Thank you very much for all your observations. I will have to keep going over this all. I've already forgotten the proper word for 'mendak'...

A. G. Maisey · 13th May 2019, 06:17 AM

Quis, to repair your scabbard you do not need carpenter's glue, in fact, I strongly recommend against the use of modern woodworking glues for scabbard repair, the reason being that if some of that glue gets in contact with the blade it will be highly likely to generate rust.

Before you think about gluing anything together the first thing you need to do is to clean away all of the existing adhesive very carefully, without removing any of the wood that it adheres to.

Then you need to make whatever adjustments are necessary to the scabbard in order to provide as good a fit as possible for the blade. During this fitting process you will have the opportunity to make the joint between the top part of the scabbard, and the lower part of the scabbard neater than is presently the case.

Probably the very best adhesive for this scabbard joint is 5 minute Araldite, tinted with a tiny amount of burnt umber powder.

Bring the parts together, insert the blade and ensure you have a satisfactory fit. Sometimes the joint will be a little bit loose, a few very thin slices of bambu will take up the slack, even ordinary note paper can be used for this, but bambu is better. You put one slice on at a time, use the Araldite, until you have a joint that fits together without slack. Test the fit of the blade, it should be perfect at this time.Ensure the faces of the joint from the top to the lower part meet smoothly, this fit can be adjusted by the slices of bambu or paper. When you have everything just as it should be you can go ahead with the glue job.

Remove the blade from the scabbard and make a wedge from softwood that will exert light pressure against the two tongues that slip into the top part of the scabbard. Lightly coat the wedge with silicon car polish, this acts as a release agent.

Lightly score the surfaces of the tongues and the meeting surfaces inside the scabbard top, lightly brush silicon car polish onto your blade and set it aside, but within reach.

Mix your Araldite and put a very, very thin coating onto the meeting surfaces.

Insert your blade into the scabbard and align it to the top surface of the scabbard.

Hold the two parts of the scabbard in position with your left hand, remove the blade, insert the wedge.

Set the scabbard aside and upright, wait a few minutes until the adhesive has dried but not set, carefully scrape off any excess adhesive around the joint, both inside and out. Use a wooden scraper for outside, knives and chisels for inside. Wipe the outside with methylated spirits.

Check the blade for adhesive, remove any adhesive with a wooden scraper. Brush the blade with a toothbrush and methylated spirits to remove the car polish. Spray and brush with WD40 to remove the methylated spirits.

This might sound like a lot of work. It is not. Somebody who has done this job a few times will do the whole thing, including the joint clean up in about 30 minutes. Fitting and aligning can take a lot longer, but that depends on how bad the present fit is.

It is a good idea to check the blade fit before the adhesive cures and hardens. If the fit is not satisfactory, it is reasonably easy to break open the joint, clean it up, and do the job again. If the adhesive is permitted to cure and harden before checking, the job to correct fit becomes more difficult and uses much more time.

QuisUtDeus · 13th May 2019, 04:04 PM

Mr. A.G., you wrote just in time. I'm out of bed and was going to leave for the store soon. Attached are pictures of the break. The break isn't clean in the back; the glue is in tact and crack carries into the warangka (I think that's the word). How do I remove all this glue?

QuisUtDeus · 13th May 2019, 04:06 PM

Pictures of break and how it fits together:

QuisUtDeus · 13th May 2019, 05:13 PM

Also, I was planning to do a short lime juice bath as the final step for the cleaning. Should the seeds be strained? It's very important in cooking food. I don't see why it wouldn't be with iron. Many Indonesian members are very picky about the oil so I figure this would extend to the lime.

13th May 2019, 04:06 PM	#6
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	Pictures of break and how it fits together: Attached Images

12th May 2019, 08:42 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I do agree with David and Alan. And please, don't sleep with a keris under your pillow again. And if you insist to do, do it without the scabbard and wrap the blade in a white cloth. Now you damaged the sheath By the way it is a beauty. Well done for a first keris. Follow the advices for cleaning and repair given here and leave it as it is.

13th May 2019, 05:03 AM	#3
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	Haha! Ok, ok, you've all convinced me. I've got a day off tomorrow. I'll go the hardware store to get some carpenter's glue. I'll finish the cleaning, too. I remembered today that my uncle in Manila was a chemical engineer. I doubt he would have trouble finding the proper arsenic. We could use native, freshly cut limes. It wouldn't be troublesome to bring the keris to Manila for staining. My uncle's retirement hobby is woodworking. It would be fun to make a new scabbard and handle just for a fun project. I could then claim proper keris addiction. This is all assuming he doesn't get a bad vibe from the blade like my friend and ban it from his house. I'm very happy you all think the blade is pre-WWII! The seller was a property liquidator who said that the keris belonged to a deceased consulate to Saudi Arabia, whose son was being commited to a nursing home. I was hoping the keris was old enough to be smithed the ritual way. If this energy I am feeling is normal for a ritually smithed keris, I am very excited! I already have two purchases lined up from one of the collectors on this forum. They're beautiful. I wouldn't alter them. I've found a bunch of mystical thread topics. I'll go bother those guys with the spirit stuff! Thank you very much for all your observations. I will have to keep going over this all. I've already forgotten the proper word for 'mendak'...

13th May 2019, 06:17 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Quis, to repair your scabbard you do not need carpenter's glue, in fact, I strongly recommend against the use of modern woodworking glues for scabbard repair, the reason being that if some of that glue gets in contact with the blade it will be highly likely to generate rust. Before you think about gluing anything together the first thing you need to do is to clean away all of the existing adhesive very carefully, without removing any of the wood that it adheres to. Then you need to make whatever adjustments are necessary to the scabbard in order to provide as good a fit as possible for the blade. During this fitting process you will have the opportunity to make the joint between the top part of the scabbard, and the lower part of the scabbard neater than is presently the case. Probably the very best adhesive for this scabbard joint is 5 minute Araldite, tinted with a tiny amount of burnt umber powder. Bring the parts together, insert the blade and ensure you have a satisfactory fit. Sometimes the joint will be a little bit loose, a few very thin slices of bambu will take up the slack, even ordinary note paper can be used for this, but bambu is better. You put one slice on at a time, use the Araldite, until you have a joint that fits together without slack. Test the fit of the blade, it should be perfect at this time.Ensure the faces of the joint from the top to the lower part meet smoothly, this fit can be adjusted by the slices of bambu or paper. When you have everything just as it should be you can go ahead with the glue job. Remove the blade from the scabbard and make a wedge from softwood that will exert light pressure against the two tongues that slip into the top part of the scabbard. Lightly coat the wedge with silicon car polish, this acts as a release agent. Lightly score the surfaces of the tongues and the meeting surfaces inside the scabbard top, lightly brush silicon car polish onto your blade and set it aside, but within reach. Mix your Araldite and put a very, very thin coating onto the meeting surfaces. Insert your blade into the scabbard and align it to the top surface of the scabbard. Hold the two parts of the scabbard in position with your left hand, remove the blade, insert the wedge. Set the scabbard aside and upright, wait a few minutes until the adhesive has dried but not set, carefully scrape off any excess adhesive around the joint, both inside and out. Use a wooden scraper for outside, knives and chisels for inside. Wipe the outside with methylated spirits. Check the blade for adhesive, remove any adhesive with a wooden scraper. Brush the blade with a toothbrush and methylated spirits to remove the car polish. Spray and brush with WD40 to remove the methylated spirits. This might sound like a lot of work. It is not. Somebody who has done this job a few times will do the whole thing, including the joint clean up in about 30 minutes. Fitting and aligning can take a lot longer, but that depends on how bad the present fit is. It is a good idea to check the blade fit before the adhesive cures and hardens. If the fit is not satisfactory, it is reasonably easy to break open the joint, clean it up, and do the job again. If the adhesive is permitted to cure and harden before checking, the job to correct fit becomes more difficult and uses much more time.

13th May 2019, 04:04 PM	#5
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	Mr. A.G., you wrote just in time. I'm out of bed and was going to leave for the store soon. Attached are pictures of the break. The break isn't clean in the back; the glue is in tact and crack carries into the warangka (I think that's the word). How do I remove all this glue?

13th May 2019, 05:13 PM	#7
QuisUtDeus Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 30	Also, I was planning to do a short lime juice bath as the final step for the cleaning. Should the seeds be strained? It's very important in cooking food. I don't see why it wouldn't be with iron. Many Indonesian members are very picky about the oil so I figure this would extend to the lime.