Oldest dated flyssa - appeal to EU/Spanish forumites

[Battara]

The same thought went through my mind as well - after Ottoman contact the blade form changed to look more yataghan like.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Battara

The same thought went through my mind as well - after Ottoman contact the blade form changed to look more yataghan like.

Absolutely!


Now I have two questions:

Is the original flissa sword started with the Ottomans and evolved to a Maghrebi / North African shape with a long and narrow blade?

Or

is the pre-Ottoman flissa sword Magrebi / Berber evolved to a Yataghan-ish shape after the 16th c. ?

[TVV]

Kubur,

I believe the flyssa started as a local copy/interpretation of the yataghan. The ruling elite in Algeria was descendant from janissaries, stationed there, and the Ottoman influence in arms and fashion must have been quite significant. Elgood in the Arms of Greece mentions that there was a production of yatghans and pistols in the Western Balkans meant for export to the Maghreb. In fact, it is very possible that the typical North African yataghans with the small years are all Balkan made.

In other threads I have seen the claim that it was a matter of prestige for a young man in Algeria in the 19th century to possess a yataghan, but I am not sure of the source right now. It makes a lot of sense though - a yataghan would be the mark of someone, claiming descent from the janissary military and ruling elite. However, the yataghans imported from the Balkans were expensive, and their decoration and its symbolical meaning foreign to the locals, especially to the Kabyles. We see a lot of flyssas resembling yatghans in blade shape, so the theory would be that the Kabyles were looking for a cheaper locally produced version of the yatghan, to which they added their own symbolical decorative motives, such as zig-zag lines, etc.

Why the form then evolved into the long version, which seems horrendously balanced and basically not really good for any kind of fencing, I do not know. Jim may be right that it was just for adornment or maybe the long versions had some ceremonial meaning, but the earlier, shorter versions that are closer to yataghans were probably quite effective as a close quarters sidearm.

Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

I think the questions of the 'flyssa' have been based mostly on just how old a weapon is it? and how did it evolve?
The work "Sabres Kabyles" by Camille Lacoste-Dujardine does describe the history of the sword of the Kabyles from the Ottoman period, but the question has been, did it exist prior to this?

Basically all that can be somewhat agreed is that the swords in these regions probably derived from forms of either kopis, falcata or some form of these Mediterranean weapons. The general similarity to Ottoman yataghan of 16th century is noted, and Jose brings up a very good point, perhaps the design, whatever form it was in, assimilated that of that Ottoman form.

There are of course no mentions of 'flyssa' in early Arab accounts such as al-Idrisi (12th c) or Ibn Khaldun (14th c) as noted in Spring ("African Arms and Armor" ,1993, p.22), this is understandable as the term is modern (c. 1820s).
The first use of the term as previously discussed was 1827, but in the images of one also in earlier posts here reveal that this form was in place by then.

While the Kabyles managed to remain autonomous due to their remote and rugged regions, they were still in nominal contact with Ottomans, and I have understood they had strong affinity for the Ottoman yataghan. One of the key factors in the Iflisen form sword we are discussing (flyssa) are the decorations and unique styling.

So we know that the Kabyles had some type of sword in the time before 1827, and at that time the form we know as flyssa was evolved. With the Ottoman presence in the 16th c. perhaps versions of their existing swords influenced by yataghans adapted accordingly and into the form we recognize.

[G. Mansfield]

I am still unsure about the origin or transitions of the flissa, though the yataghan seems to have had a strong influence from the Ottomans in the older deep belly flissas as much noted earlier. Reclus states that the flissa origin is modeled after the Roman gladium…

The West Kabyle highlands are occupied by the Flissa-um-el-Lil, or Flissa of the Night, called also Flissa of the Woods, descended of the warlike Issaflenses, who maintained a long struggle against the Romans. The Flissa of the Sea, another branch of this group, separated from their brethren by the Isser, the Ait- Waguennun, and other communities, were formerly noted armourers, whose swords, modelled on the Roman gladium, and worn by most of the natives, still take the name of " flissa." (Reclus, Elisée. The Earth and its Inhabitants, Africa: North-west Africa. D. Appleton, 1887. Book.), p.256

While Henry Maxwell comments on the design and usage of the sword and how that serves ergonomically.

"The Kabyles manufacture in the Flessa range of mountains iron yataghans of an extravagant shape, rendering them much sought after by collectors of arms; they are very broad and tolerably thick at the cutting part; thus they are very are narrow up to the grip; this gives great percussive force, and the shape so far is rational; but they have further a very long, very thin, and very narrow point which bends without elasticity, injured the power of cutting, and is but little adapted for thrusting. If the points were shortened, this heavy and ill-balanced weapon would be well constructed as an iron yataghan; the defects of the material, as regards fines of edge and rigidity of the blade, would be compensated for by volume; it would stand half way between the steel yataghan and the mace." (Marey-Monge, Guillaume Stanislaus; Maxwell, Henry Hamilton, Memoir on Swords etc (London: J Weale, 1860), p. 80-81

The long-needle blade type is absolutely ill-balanced but heavy enough to effectively be used through drawcut slashing rather than stabbing from horseback, possibly used for decapitating wounded prisoners. The deep belly form seems much more balanced, a stronger iron, greater quality in decorations, and more manageable to wield. I do think these forms were of earlier pedigree than the long-bladed designs that are often seen. Here is some that I have acquired through the years but maybe they can spark some more interest or conversation. Food for thought.
Geoff

[Jim McDougall]

Geoff thank you so much for this great entry, and for sharing the nice spectrum of examples. I think this well shows the individuality of many of these, and how they are often tailored to the character and needs of the person acquiring each of them.
Also I would like to thank you bringing together some of the perspectives we have discussed concerning the possible origins of this basically Kabyle form, and most importantly presenting and citing these references.

It is true that many of the flyssa with differently shaped blades as seen could feasibly be used in the manner of other swords, however the hilt in my view remains one of the factors in use which seems ineffective.

The long needle point blade is of course the primary objective in observing these swords as a whole rather than the variants. One problem I have always seen pertaining to the idea of slashing/drawcut use is the ability to hold the grip securely with such an awkward and heavy blade, the momentum would seem compromising....but I am admittedly no authority on swordsmanship.
I was not aware of the Kabyles use of horses as they are essentially mountain tribes, but again, certainly some regions may be feasible for horsemen.
It is often noted that these 'flyssa' has some of the same deep ancestry with various 'Mediterranean' weapons and in turn Roman and Greek, but these influences are notably nuanced in many edged weapon forms.

[Kubur]

After the wise words of my favorite guru, here a flyssa yataghan

[Jim McDougall]

To add clarification to what I was observing on the Kabyles, and that I had yet to ever see an illustration of any of them mounted, I have found references to' cavalry among the numbers of Kabyle forces over time. It does not seem to comprise large numbers, but as noted, present just the same.

Returning to the 'flyssa' , as we have discussed, the form we are familiar with (as seen in these examples) does not seem to have evolved until at least around end of 18th c. It does seem reasonable that some form of yataghan was probably present in the Kabyle kingdoms from some time earlier, and those of course probably were influenced by Ottoman examples of the 'deep belly' form.

The evolution of the blade long with needle point possibly evolved from Ottoman influences via their ethnic forces, such as Caucasian and Tatar, where these 'needle points existed on some of their sabres.

The term 'flyssa' coupled with yataghan, as Kubur has noted with the example he posted, seems rightly placed.

Attached are two more Kabyle illustration, which as typically seen, seem to emphasize their well known guns, and are dismounted.

[ariel]

Old timers here might still remember Anthony Tirri’s assertion that Laz Bichaq was a direct descendant of Flissa. Diagonally-cut heel of the blade was one of his arguments.

In retrospect, he might not have been totally wrong. One way or another both of them were likely descending from the classic yataghan, and the similar heels as well as needlepoint points of their blades only support Tirri’s hypothesis.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Attached are two more Kabyle illustration, which as typically seen, seem to emphasize their well known guns, and are dismounted.

Jim, the man to the left is a Persian prince...