Hungarian saber 15thC

Evgeny_K · 23rd April 2019, 05:08 PM

Gents,
What do you think about this beauty?
Unlike the examples above, this one has a straight crossguard (not S-shaped).
Are swords/sabers known with this kind of crossguard?
There is a marking on the tang (hope it will be more visible after cleaning).

Victrix · 23rd April 2019, 07:42 PM

Hi Evgeny,

That’s an interesting sword. It looks like a combination of the sciavonesca swords pictured earlier in this thread, and the early hussar swords like the one of Stephen Bathory posted here (see below). I must confess that I never saw one like yours before, but I can’t rule out that it could be a transitionary example from the S shaped crossguard to a straight crossguard but before adopting the almond shaped pommel of later hussar swords. It looks like a hussar sword with a strong Venetian (because of the cat’s head pommel) connection. Venice and its surroundings supplied a lot of arms to Hungary, and parts of Dalmatia and the hinterland in Croatia was then part of Hungary in a dual monarchy. There were also many Slavic mercenaries from those territories that served in Venice.

It would be great to see the mark on the tang after cleaning.

Evgeny_K · 24th April 2019, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Hi Evgeny,

That’s an interesting sword. It looks like a combination of the sciavonesca swords pictured earlier in this thread, and the early hussar swords like the one of Stephen Bathory posted here (see below). I must confess that I never saw one like yours before, but I can’t rule out that it could be a transitionary example from the S shaped crossguard to a straight crossguard but before adopting the almond shaped pommel of later hussar swords. It looks like a hussar sword with a strong Venetian (because of the cat’s head pommel) connection. Venice and its surroundings supplied a lot of arms to Hungary, and parts of Dalmatia and the hinterland in Croatia was then part of Hungary in a dual monarchy. There were also many Slavic mercenaries from those territories that served in Venice.

It would be great to see the mark on the tang after cleaning.

Hi
Don't you think it could be an example of a transitional sword model with "classical" straight crossguard which will be replaced later with S-shaped crossguard? Or it could be some kind of local feature...

Victrix · 24th April 2019, 07:52 PM

The common denominator of all the swords in this thread is Hungary. The Hungarian kingdom pre-1918 was much bigger than today, and encompassed vast pusztas and a coast on the Adriatic Sea. Swords with S-shaped guards and cat’s head pommels are deemed to be medieval Hungarian. The cat’s head pommels are thought of as of Venetian (on the Adriatic sea) origin. Your sword looks like a hussar sword with a cat’s head pommel. These hussar swords later had almond shaped pommels (late medieval time) and the crossguards became smaller/shorter. Ironically the straight cross guard on the sabres may have been a Turkish/Ottoman influence. At the end of the 16th and during the 17thC the Hungarian hussar sabres were very similar to Turkish ones.

Victrix · 24th April 2019, 10:00 PM

Hmm... I just noticed that your sword lacks langets on the cross guard which seems odd. So it then looks like a knightly sword with a Hungarian type pommel and a Turkish style sabre blade with a yelman? Seems a little bit too mixed to me.

I would argue that knightly swords are separate from sabres which developed out of the Asian steppes.

Evgeny_K · 25th April 2019, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Hmm... I just noticed that your sword lacks langets on the cross guard which seems odd. So it then looks like a knightly sword with a Hungarian type pommel and a Turkish style sabre blade with a yelman? Seems a little bit too mixed to me.

I would argue that knightly swords are separate from sabres which developed out of the Asian steppes.

That's exactly what's interesting.
Furthermore it seems to me that it's blade is less curved than the Turkish type blades.
Here is an example for comparison:

Victrix · 25th April 2019, 01:15 PM

Wow, that’s a beauty! Where do you find them all?! The scabbard parts look good as well.

Are you comfortable with the provenance of the first sword? The patina looks different (more rusty brown?) compared to the others. Interesting you mentioned the lesser curvature. The Turkish pala are similarly fairly straight until just before the yelman where the tip twists at a sharp angle. I was thinking the first sword could be more Southern Balkan in origin (Serbia, Bulgaria) where the Turkish influence may have had a stronger influence? Also I’m not very familiar with Byzantine swords. But this does not explain the absence of langets on the crossguard.

kronckew · 22nd February 2023, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evgeny_K

That's exactly what's interesting.
Furthermore it seems to me that it's blade is less curved than the Turkish type blades.
Here is an example for comparison:

Early Ottoman tribal swords were a lot straighter. more like this: (not mine. mine has a curved guard)

23rd April 2019, 05:08 PM	#1
Evgeny_K Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 213	Gents, What do you think about this beauty? Unlike the examples above, this one has a straight crossguard (not S-shaped). Are swords/sabers known with this kind of crossguard? There is a marking on the tang (hope it will be more visible after cleaning). Attached Images

23rd April 2019, 07:42 PM	#2
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Hi Evgeny, That’s an interesting sword. It looks like a combination of the sciavonesca swords pictured earlier in this thread, and the early hussar swords like the one of Stephen Bathory posted here (see below). I must confess that I never saw one like yours before, but I can’t rule out that it could be a transitionary example from the S shaped crossguard to a straight crossguard but before adopting the almond shaped pommel of later hussar swords. It looks like a hussar sword with a strong Venetian (because of the cat’s head pommel) connection. Venice and its surroundings supplied a lot of arms to Hungary, and parts of Dalmatia and the hinterland in Croatia was then part of Hungary in a dual monarchy. There were also many Slavic mercenaries from those territories that served in Venice. It would be great to see the mark on the tang after cleaning. Attached Images

24th April 2019, 07:52 PM	#4
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	The common denominator of all the swords in this thread is Hungary. The Hungarian kingdom pre-1918 was much bigger than today, and encompassed vast pusztas and a coast on the Adriatic Sea. Swords with S-shaped guards and cat’s head pommels are deemed to be medieval Hungarian. The cat’s head pommels are thought of as of Venetian (on the Adriatic sea) origin. Your sword looks like a hussar sword with a cat’s head pommel. These hussar swords later had almond shaped pommels (late medieval time) and the crossguards became smaller/shorter. Ironically the straight cross guard on the sabres may have been a Turkish/Ottoman influence. At the end of the 16th and during the 17thC the Hungarian hussar sabres were very similar to Turkish ones.

24th April 2019, 10:00 PM	#5
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Hmm... I just noticed that your sword lacks langets on the cross guard which seems odd. So it then looks like a knightly sword with a Hungarian type pommel and a Turkish style sabre blade with a yelman? Seems a little bit too mixed to me. I would argue that knightly swords are separate from sabres which developed out of the Asian steppes.

25th April 2019, 01:15 PM	#7
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Wow, that’s a beauty! Where do you find them all?! The scabbard parts look good as well. Are you comfortable with the provenance of the first sword? The patina looks different (more rusty brown?) compared to the others. Interesting you mentioned the lesser curvature. The Turkish pala are similarly fairly straight until just before the yelman where the tip twists at a sharp angle. I was thinking the first sword could be more Southern Balkan in origin (Serbia, Bulgaria) where the Turkish influence may have had a stronger influence? Also I’m not very familiar with Byzantine swords. But this does not explain the absence of langets on the crossguard.