Sudanese Command Batons

Martin Lubojacky · 23rd April 2019, 08:42 AM

Small remarks which could, maybe, contribute to the clarification of the use:

The cone/nob made of black clay is, in fact, relatively breakable. The small red bids inserted in it are not bids made of glass etc - it is seed of some tree and in many cases they already dropped out (this does not seem to be durable command baton like eg mace/bulava) It is really long time and I don´t remember well already, but I heard the clay and seeds had some meaning for Mahdist monks...

TVV · 23rd April 2019, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Lubojacky

Small remarks which could, maybe, contribute to the clarification of the use:

The cone/nob made of black clay is, in fact, relatively breakable. The small red bids inserted in it are not bids made of glass etc - it is seed of some tree and in many cases they already dropped out (this does not seem to be durable command baton like eg mace/bulava) It is really long time and I don´t remember well already, but I heard the clay and seeds had some meaning for Mahdist monks...

Oh, so then this is what Zirngibl means by "decorated with poisonous seeds". I was not quite sure how to interpret that part when I read the text to the illustration in Panga Na Visu, but your explanation makes perfect sense now.

So I guess what we have are dancing spears, meant for ritualistic use by fervent dervishes in Sudan.

Kubur · 23rd April 2019, 07:18 PM

As Jim says (it's not a quotation) "it's amazing what we can learn on this forum"...

I'm convinced that these batons or maces were used by dervishes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

So I guess what we have are dancing spears, meant for ritualistic use by fervent dervishes in Sudan.

Teodor I don't think that you should dissociate religious use and military use.
These objects are not maces, not spears either...
You can find many books and articles about the role of the dervishes and sufis in the Sudanese armies. The mahdi was a sufi. You can find a lot of books on the role of sufis and dervishes in the ottoman army and also in the Safavid army.

We should be humbles and it's already a big step to say that these batons were used by dervishes...
During the battles to command units, for prayers before the battles or to bury the dead like in the Ottoman armies...who knows...

Edster · 23rd April 2019, 10:26 PM

Teodor,

I read Pradines' paper you referenced. I'm not sure that he proved his points.
1. While Sudanese troops (as "other ranks") typically Nuba, were in Greece, they likely were not in command positions. He provides no evidence that they were. Nuba were highly regarded and used as slave troops by the Ottomans, later impressed by the Mahdist and as free men by the British at Omdurman.
2. Is the end piece actually a sphero-conical container? Doesn't look bulbous enough and the end hole is too big.They may appear simiiar to s-c common from Romania to Central Asia. I think they were purpose made pieces, thick enough to be drilled to accept the seeds or beads. While some of these batons may have been collected after Omdurman, I saw no evidence as to who used them or for what purpose.
3. The Mahdi essentially outlawed participation in sufi activities during his reign. As far as I know, none of the British captives or others who wrote reports of the Mahdiya mentioned religious officials using such a baton.Much of these reports were propaganda, but they and later histories were pretty inclusive and were good observers.

I like your batons, but while he weaves an interesting story, I'm not convinced it is what he says it is.

Regards,
Ed

TVV · 23rd April 2019, 11:18 PM

Thank you Ed, I agree that the knobs do not look like sphero-conical vessels, at least on the spears/scepters discussed here. It also looks like these were in use well before the Mahdi started his rebellion, with their use continuing during the Mahdiya but not originating during those times. The command baton theory so far lacks factual support, so we should probably dismiss it for now.

If I am interpreting your post right, you have not found anything in contemporary accounts to support Zirngibl's statement that these were used by religious fanatics for self-inflicting wounds either, correct?

Teodor

Edster · 23rd April 2019, 11:54 PM

Teodor,

Some shi'a of contemporary Iran beat themselves across the back with chains, bringing blood. No doubt this practice has a historical roots, but I haven't researched it lately. I don't recall reading of any self flagellation among Mahdists and Sudanese in general. Scarification is another matter as tribal identification, but not as far as I know a Islamic ritual. Of course, specialists could know of details available to serious detailed study.

Maybe officials of the Turkiya/Egyptian government in Sudan may have used a baton between 1821-1885. Can't say.

Best,
Ed

Jim McDougall · 24th April 2019, 02:51 AM

I am thinking the 'baton' notion is a bit of a red herring, and am pretty much firmly in accord with this item being something used by priests or other religious figures used in ceremonial practices rather than any sort of command symbol. While this example, by its provenance, well predates the Mahdist period, it does seem clear that the nature of the item is similar to later examples used as ceremonial objects used in the Mahdiyya period.

These seem to approximate forms of mace, and like many weapons which are effectively like the actual combat weapons they recall, they are of course used in a more figurative manner, to dispel evil, etc. I have learned a great deal more on the thuluth weapons, and find the suggestion that these may well have been used in military ranks to carry as talismanic standards etc. quite plausible . The fact that these are not typically sharpened may support that.

While these various forms of 'mace' have 'weapon' like elements in most cases, I do not think they are intended for necessarily 'military' context. They may well be intended as figurative 'weapons' in the manner of the 'phurbu' of Tibet for example. A 'dagger' to chase away demons.

While I am sure there were not 'thuluth' covered weapons in the Greek situation to which this example is noted as from, there were surely native priests or monks there with the tribal forces who might have used this accordingly.

To the Mahdi, while he was a Sufi, and effectively a dervish in the Summaniya order, he later changed to a different Tariqa, and as he began his Jihad, he forbad the use of the dervish term, insisting on the term 'Ansar'(=helper) for his followers. They remained mystics, so I believe the practices were very much as before. The examples of these ceremonial maces/staves which have added elements such as crocodile hide, small daggers etc. are in keeping with the weapons so decorated in his time and that of the Khaliph.

As in the field of battle, these Ansar fully expected glorious death, and the presence of priests, talismanic objects emblazoned with talismanic invocations and in their view certainly would have driven their fervor into action.

I hope I have recounted these things reasonably accurately from what I have found in researching these past few days and look forward to correction from those here far better versed in them than I.

23rd April 2019, 08:42 AM	#1
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Small remarks which could, maybe, contribute to the clarification of the use: The cone/nob made of black clay is, in fact, relatively breakable. The small red bids inserted in it are not bids made of glass etc - it is seed of some tree and in many cases they already dropped out (this does not seem to be durable command baton like eg mace/bulava) It is really long time and I don´t remember well already, but I heard the clay and seeds had some meaning for Mahdist monks...

23rd April 2019, 10:26 PM	#4
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 411	Teodor, I read Pradines' paper you referenced. I'm not sure that he proved his points. 1. While Sudanese troops (as "other ranks") typically Nuba, were in Greece, they likely were not in command positions. He provides no evidence that they were. Nuba were highly regarded and used as slave troops by the Ottomans, later impressed by the Mahdist and as free men by the British at Omdurman. 2. Is the end piece actually a sphero-conical container? Doesn't look bulbous enough and the end hole is too big.They may appear simiiar to s-c common from Romania to Central Asia. I think they were purpose made pieces, thick enough to be drilled to accept the seeds or beads. While some of these batons may have been collected after Omdurman, I saw no evidence as to who used them or for what purpose. 3. The Mahdi essentially outlawed participation in sufi activities during his reign. As far as I know, none of the British captives or others who wrote reports of the Mahdiya mentioned religious officials using such a baton.Much of these reports were propaganda, but they and later histories were pretty inclusive and were good observers. I like your batons, but while he weaves an interesting story, I'm not convinced it is what he says it is. Regards, Ed

23rd April 2019, 11:18 PM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Thank you Ed, I agree that the knobs do not look like sphero-conical vessels, at least on the spears/scepters discussed here. It also looks like these were in use well before the Mahdi started his rebellion, with their use continuing during the Mahdiya but not originating during those times. The command baton theory so far lacks factual support, so we should probably dismiss it for now. If I am interpreting your post right, you have not found anything in contemporary accounts to support Zirngibl's statement that these were used by religious fanatics for self-inflicting wounds either, correct? Teodor

23rd April 2019, 11:54 PM	#6
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 411	Teodor, Some shi'a of contemporary Iran beat themselves across the back with chains, bringing blood. No doubt this practice has a historical roots, but I haven't researched it lately. I don't recall reading of any self flagellation among Mahdists and Sudanese in general. Scarification is another matter as tribal identification, but not as far as I know a Islamic ritual. Of course, specialists could know of details available to serious detailed study. Maybe officials of the Turkiya/Egyptian government in Sudan may have used a baton between 1821-1885. Can't say. Best, Ed

24th April 2019, 02:51 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	I am thinking the 'baton' notion is a bit of a red herring, and am pretty much firmly in accord with this item being something used by priests or other religious figures used in ceremonial practices rather than any sort of command symbol. While this example, by its provenance, well predates the Mahdist period, it does seem clear that the nature of the item is similar to later examples used as ceremonial objects used in the Mahdiyya period. These seem to approximate forms of mace, and like many weapons which are effectively like the actual combat weapons they recall, they are of course used in a more figurative manner, to dispel evil, etc. I have learned a great deal more on the thuluth weapons, and find the suggestion that these may well have been used in military ranks to carry as talismanic standards etc. quite plausible . The fact that these are not typically sharpened may support that. While these various forms of 'mace' have 'weapon' like elements in most cases, I do not think they are intended for necessarily 'military' context. They may well be intended as figurative 'weapons' in the manner of the 'phurbu' of Tibet for example. A 'dagger' to chase away demons. While I am sure there were not 'thuluth' covered weapons in the Greek situation to which this example is noted as from, there were surely native priests or monks there with the tribal forces who might have used this accordingly. To the Mahdi, while he was a Sufi, and effectively a dervish in the Summaniya order, he later changed to a different Tariqa, and as he began his Jihad, he forbad the use of the dervish term, insisting on the term 'Ansar'(=helper) for his followers. They remained mystics, so I believe the practices were very much as before. The examples of these ceremonial maces/staves which have added elements such as crocodile hide, small daggers etc. are in keeping with the weapons so decorated in his time and that of the Khaliph. As in the field of battle, these Ansar fully expected glorious death, and the presence of priests, talismanic objects emblazoned with talismanic invocations and in their view certainly would have driven their fervor into action. I hope I have recounted these things reasonably accurately from what I have found in researching these past few days and look forward to correction from those here far better versed in them than I.