Valuable sticks

[yuanzhumin]

Hi everybody,
What brings me to a much bigger stick :
Should we ask the French to give back the obelisk standing on the Concorde Square in the middle of Paris ?
In fact, it looks better than the guillotines the revolutionaries used to set up there. To the great despair of the ones that would like to see me under their blade , I would say no.
I was remembered not long ago that this obelisk was not stolen by Napoleon during his Egyptian campaign, but was offered to France by the sultan of Egypt, Mohammed Ali, in 1830.
So if this one was a gift and legally entered France, that other one was not : the obelisk of Axum that used to stand in Roma till last year and that had been looted from Ethiopia by the Italian army in 1937. See this article http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4458105.stm**
By the way, I just realized that we could celebrate these days the first anniversary of the return of this cultural relic in its country.
Best,
yuanzhumin

[Tim Simmons]

The British Museum has far more important things in my mind than the Elgin marbles, various treasures equivalent to the UK crown jewels from some sea board countries, taken within the last 110 years. I could well see this as a cause for concern in the "modern" world "global village", but as I said if I were the boss I would not sign the paper and I think that will always be the case of the person lucky enough to become the boss.

[katana]

With the continual advance of modern, industrial society encroaching onto the lands and lives of tribal members, (Africa, Borneo, Tibet etc.) their established cultural lives are being seriously eroded. New generations are adapting or are forced to adapt to modern ethics and lifestyle, much of the wisdom and knowledge of their ancestors will surely be lost as the 'old ways' are forgotten. This I feel is a sad state of affairs .
Perhaps you could argue that museums and collectors would become the 'custodians' of their cultural history. And by doing so, would educate others and preserve their heritage. But, generally the driving force behind many museums and dare I say, some collectors is an economic one. Obtaining 'treasures' legally or otherwise, for the purpose of increasing the number of the paying guests (museum), for prestige (museum/collector) or to sell on for profit (collector).
Articles 'stolen' as war trophies is an obvious grey area, after all many countries' borders have changed due to conflict, yet it is rare for the vanquished to expect to regain land lost after a war. Whether this is morally wrong is down to the individual and the circumstances. But as Darwin points out, it is (unfortunately) 'survival of the fittest'.
I also agree that many poorer (economically) countries seem to have corrupt regimes, whom, would surely sell, any returned 'national treasures' for personal gain. Depriving their own people of their heritage and the country's property.
I hope that if decisions are made about the return of artefacts to their rightful heirs, they are based on moral judgement, and are individually assessed on their merits. It is important that these 'treasures', whether they are 'sticks' or a Chinese jade death mask, are preserved, and available for research or viewing.

If man forgets where he came from... how will he know where he’s going.....

Who would have thought that an article about the return of 'some sticks' would stir such debate.......

[fernando]

If man forgets where he came from... how will he know where he’s going.....

Amen

[Rick]

Originally Posted by katana

With the continual advance of modern, industrial society encroaching onto the lands and lives of tribal members, (Africa, Borneo, Tibet etc.) their established cultural lives are being seriously eroded. New generations are adapting or are forced to adapt to modern ethics and lifestyle, much of the wisdom and knowledge of their ancestors will surely be lost as the 'old ways' are forgotten. This I feel is a sad state of affairs .

Unfortunately this seems inevitable in today's world ; societies evolve or die .

Originally Posted by katana

Perhaps you could argue that museums and collectors would become the 'custodians' of their cultural history. And by doing so, would educate others and preserve their heritage. But, generally the driving force behind many museums and dare I say, some collectors is an economic one. Obtaining 'treasures' legally or otherwise, for the purpose of increasing the number of the paying guests (museum), for prestige (museum/collector) or to sell on for profit (collector).

I will not indict the Dealer/Collector as he advances his collection by selling and acquiring ; IMO most "Dealers" do not get rich . There are many more efficient ways to accumulate wealth than selling antique arms .
I also believe the Collector can be instrumental in keeping interest in these artifacts alive providing he is willing to share and he maintains his collection unlike many museums that are constrained by a budget .

Originally Posted by katana

I also agree that many poorer (economically) countries seem to have corrupt regimes, whom, would surely sell, any returned 'national treasures' for personal gain. Depriving their own people of their heritage and the country's property.

This is why I would presently not consider returning my collection to the countries that they originated from .

Originally Posted by katana

I hope that if decisions are made about the return of artefacts to their rightful heirs, they are based on moral judgement, and are individually assessed on their merits. It is important that these 'treasures', whether they are 'sticks' or a Chinese jade death mask, are preserved, and available for research or viewing.
If man forgets where he came from... how will he know where he’s going.....

Very true .

[katana]

QUOTE :
I will not indict the Dealer/Collector as he advances his collection by selling and acquiring ; IMO most "Dealers" do not get rich . There are many more efficient ways to accumulate wealth than selling antique arms .
Rick

In general I totally agree, but there is a very small number of unscrupulous dealers of Antiquities that are actively involved in under-hand methods to procure their items. Bribery, site/grave robbing is not uncommon. Apparently, the information provided in several documentaries (last year) support this. South America was the main example. Various newly discovered sites were 'looted' before archaeologists had any chance of excavating. It seems that the 'stolen' items are 'supplied' cheaply and then 'sold on'. The items, because they are illegally obtained, cannot be publicly displayed and have no provenance and yet they are still purchased by unethical collectors, whom are totally aware of the article's illegality. In this particular case we are talking objects often made of solid gold, jade etc.
This causes two major problems, 1 the sites are often 'vandalised' to remove the articles, causing a loss of data for the archaeologist. And 2. The loss of these items,which would allow further insight into the history and culture of these ancient civilisations.



QUOTE:

I also believe the Collector can be instrumental in keeping interest in these artifacts alive providing he is willing to share and he maintains his collection unlike many museums that are constrained by a budget .
Rick.

I couldn't agree more

[Rick]

Sad but true ; grave robbers have existed since time immemorial .