Small Padsumbalin Panabas

[Robert]

Originally Posted By mross
I know this may not be a popular opinion. I do not think any of the Panabas where primarily a fighting weapon. Status symbol, execution device, clean up weapon after a battle but not primarily a fighting weapon. Not to say it could not or would not be used under the right circumstance. I have several and have seen and held a few more, IMHO they are too cumbersome and slow to be used in battle. A kalis, barong or spear would put the user of a panabas at very severe disadvantage. I also do not believe in the fear argument that they where used to strike fear into their opponents. I do not see a Moro being very fearful of an opponent coming at him with a panabas. I could see him smiling as he knows he is about to make him meet his maker.

It was not my intent to infer that this style of panabas was ever meant to be used as a primary weapon in battle, but instead could have possibly been carried either as a secondary weapon or as you pointed out as a status symbol. I just do not believe that examples such as the one Detlef has shown here were made with the sole purpose of being used as nothing more than mere gardening tools.

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by Robert

It was not my intent to infer that this style of panabas was ever meant to be used as a primary weapon in battle, but instead could have possibly been carried either as a secondary weapon or as you pointed out as a status symbol. I just do not believe that examples such as the one Detlef has shown here were made with the sole purpose of being used as nothing more than mere gardening tools.

Hi Robert and Detlef, please understand my comment is in no way meant to belittle/slur the panabas in question (what would I give to have an antique like that), but rather as a context-setter / primer on how Moros fight, based on my research and experience on Moro Fighting Arts (MFA) and the invaluable info / advice of previous forum members.

In my opinion, the panabas is chiefly a Maguindanao weapon. While it may have been used in the battlefield, it is chiefly a sultan's bodyguard and execution weapon; it's the equivalent of shock and awe for the populace.

Now, why do I think it's not likely to have been used in battle?

1. There are better weapons. The oldest Moro weapon is the spear, and it's the mainstay in any conflict. Its exceptional range is a must in battlefield scenarios. The Moro warriors were not like the talibong-wielding Pulahanes of the Visayas who relied on guerilla tactics; theirs was the open battlefield kind of battle. If they relied solely on their barungs and kris, they would have been mowed down before they were able to use these in close-quarter combat. Enter the spear, which I think has not been getting enough attention in this forum. Before the kris or barung gets unsheated, it's the initial weapon, and is usually paired with a shield. If I were a Moro warrior and I had to choose a two-handed weapon, I would not choose the panabas, as it is:
a. Limited in range
b. Cumbersome
c. Too slow
d. Bigger samples are too heavy

2. It is not included in the list of traditional Maguindanao weapons. Based on a short 1970s ethnographic reference aptly entitled 'Maguindanaon', the traditional carry consists of spear, kris, and a large knife. You can see the wisdom in this array of weapons because they allow one to dominate at three different ranges of engagement; if you used the panabas as a secondary or primary, you would have to give up either the spear or the kris, which are, in my opinion, much better weapons.

3. The engraved symbols on the blade are decorative, not talismanic. Those who own multiple talismanic Moro blades in their collection will understand that there is a pattern or common motifs to engraved blades which are meant for killing. I've seen panabas before with a talismanic motif, and it's quite potent.

Hope this info helps!

[Sajen]

Very early this morning I returned from Zürich, the for sure very arduous journey was worth it's effort, first I've saved nearly half of the offered shipping costs, secondly I saved the custom tax since there is no tax on it when you bring it personal inside Germany (duty and tax-free allowance), third it's a very nice item, see the pics after a little TLC.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by xasterix

Hi Robert and Detlef, please understand my comment is in no way meant to belittle/slur the panabas in question (what would I give to have an antique like that), but rather as a context-setter / primer on how Moros fight, based on my research and experience on Moro Fighting Arts (MFA) and the invaluable info / advice of previous forum members.

Hi Xas,

No problem and I very appreciate your previous words. But when I find typical combat nicks in the edge of a blade I know what was done with it. Sadly the damage in this case is not clear related due age, only a polish would bring out maybe more. And I wouldn't be angry or disappointed by an agricultre blade.

Regards,
Detlef

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Xas,

No problem and I very appreciate your previous words. But when I find typical combat nicks in the edge of a blade I know what was done with it. Sadly the damage in this case is not clear related due age, only a polish would bring out maybe more. And I wouldn't be angry or disappointed by an agricultre blade.

Regards,
Detlef

Hi Detlef,

Now that the engraving is even clearer, I'm having second thoughts =)

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by xasterix

Now that the engraving is even clearer, I'm having second thoughts =)

Hi Xas,

May I ask which ones?

Regards,
Detlef

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Xas,

May I ask which ones?

Regards,
Detlef

Hi Detlef,

The one near the tip. Seems like a beak or something.

Regarding edge-on-edge contact, it's mortal sin for BangsaMoros- especially the Tausug- for their blades to clash with another's. While I know everything will be chaos, I'm inclined to believe that edge-on-edge contact rarely happened during Moro battles. Moro Fighting Arts has a different mode of entry with weapons than the usual entry of European or FMA styles which greatly minimizes edge-on-edge contact.

That being said, I'm now 50/50 with regard to whether this was designed to be a weapon or not. If ever it was, it must have been a highly experimental one.

[Sajen]

Regarding nicks in a edge, here are pictures from a Mindanao kris in my collection which has several nicks in the edges. From what they shall originate when not from edge to edge contact? Only a sharp and hard edge would be possible to let such a damage in a fighting blade IMVHO.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by xasterix

Hi Detlef,

The one near the tip. Seems like a beak or something.

Regarding edge-on-edge contact, it's mortal sin for BangsaMoros- especially the Tausug- for their blades to clash with another's. While I know everything will be chaos, I'm inclined to believe that edge-on-edge contact rarely happened during Moro battles. Moro Fighting Arts has a different mode of entry with weapons than the usual entry of European or FMA styles which greatly minimizes edge-on-edge contact.

That being said, I'm now 50/50 with regard to whether this was designed to be a weapon or not. If ever it was, it must have been a highly experimental one.

I've meant which other thoughts?

[mross]

Originally Posted by Robert

It was not my intent to infer that this style of panabas was ever meant to be used as a primary weapon in battle, but instead could have possibly been carried either as a secondary weapon or as you pointed out as a status symbol. I just do not believe that examples such as the one Detlef has shown here were made with the sole purpose of being used as nothing more than mere gardening tools.

No argument at all. I never mentioned gardening tool I was trying to point out and guess I did not do so well, that I think status symbol is their primary purpose. I have read many statements that the panabas is a formidable weapon. This I disagree with. I think the panabas mentioned here is meant as a status symbol. I don't think anyone would take the time to engrave a weed cutter. Now something used for Betel nuts is a different story entirely. I can easily see that being blinged out to the max.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Robert

It was not my intent to infer that this style of panabas was ever meant to be used as a primary weapon in battle, but instead could have possibly been carried either as a secondary weapon or as you pointed out as a status symbol. I just do not believe that examples such as the one Detlef has shown here were made with the sole purpose of being used as nothing more than mere gardening tools.

Hello Robert,

Agree with you that it would make very good second hand weapon. On the other side I could imagine it as farmer tool as well, the nicks don't speak a clear language and blade surface seems to be never been polished.

Regards,
Detlef

[mross]

One thing I would like to point out. Edge damage is just that edge damage. While it's romantic to think it was earned in battle it is far more likely that a previous owner( non-warrior) did something stupid.
For instance I have a tomahawk that I put a paper slicing shaving sharp edge on. My son was using it to chop wood with his friend. The friend saw how well it chopped and decided to see if it would chop a brick in half, it did, the edge has never been the same.
Just saying, pretty much all of the ethno-blades we see if used for what they were intended for will not usually sustain damage. As to edge on edge damage in battle, could happen, but would be rare. Any warrior that knew what he was doing would avoid that. For the simple reason that it could damage his weapon.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by mross

As to edge on edge damage in battle, could happen, but would be rare. Any warrior that knew what he was doing would avoid that. For the simple reason that it could damage his weapon.

Hello Mross,

I disagree with your point. How you want to avoid a edge to edge contact in a battle when it going about your life? And a good blade will receive only a very small nick/damage from edge to edge contact. I can show several blades with nicks in the edge where it's very clear from what they orginated. An edge to edge contact is very clear to seen by many blades which are fighting weapons instead of status weapons. Just my humble opinion.

Regards,
Detlef

[Robert]

Hello Detlef, Now that you have your beautiful new toy in hand I have a couple of questions. Is the metal on the end of the hilt a simple band or is it an actual cap that completely covers the end? If this is a cap would it be possible to carefully remove it to see if the hilt has been weighted (usually with lead) to balance this piece? If it is only a band, is there any sign of the hilts end ever having being weighted such as a lead slug or a now empty hole where a weight might have been? My reason for asking is that I have seen this done on some of the other small panabas that I have been fortunate enough to handle over the years. If the hilt on your example has been weighted for balance it would tend to add to my belief that this was originally made not only as a status piece but as a weapon as well. This of course is only my personal opinion and like many times before I could be completely wrong in my assumption. My congratulations to you on being able to add such a wonderful and rare item to your collection.

Best,
Robert

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Robert

Hello Detlef, Now that you have your beautiful new toy in hand I have a couple of questions. Is the metal on the end of the hilt a simple band or is it an actual cap that completely covers the end? If this is a cap would it be possible to carefully remove it to see if the hilt has been weighted (usually with lead) to balance this piece? If it is only a band, is there any sign of the hilts end ever having being weighted such as a lead slug or a now empty hole where a weight might have been? My reason for asking is that I have seen this done on some of the other small panabas that I have been fortunate enough to handle over the years. If the hilt on your example has been weighted for balance it would tend to add to my belief that this was originally made not only as a status piece but as a weapon as well. This of course is only my personal opinion and like many times before I could be completely wrong in my assumption. My congratulations to you on being able to add such a wonderful and rare item to your collection.

Hello Robert,
It's simple a band and there is no hole where once could have been lead attached to give the panabas a better handling weight. The patination from the wood at the handle is very well patinated so it was handled many times over some decades. Like said, I am very happy with it equal if it was a stutus piece, a farmer tool or even a weapon. Thank you very much for the compliment!

Best regards,
Detlef

[Robert]

Like said, I am very happy with it equal if it was a stutus piece, a farmer tool or even a weapon.

I would as well.