Translation please

Kubur · 26th March 2019, 11:06 PM

Yep
look and please look at the silver hilt much more simple than the one posted

ariel · 27th March 2019, 03:44 AM

It is simpler, but at least it has intact langets:-)

David · 27th March 2019, 02:45 PM

You guys crack me up. 25 posts later and Victrix is the only one who so much as even addressed the one question Corrado actually asked about this sword. I mean, i know we don't want anything to get in the way of everyone taking their usual snipes at each other, but can anyone translate the script on the blade or is it perhaps as Vic suggested, just pseudo-Arabic? Anyone?

Jim McDougall · 27th March 2019, 04:58 PM

Actually it is quite true that Victrix has a very astutely suggested observation toward the translation in gold on the blade, in that it may well be a faux Arabic lettering as has been known in not only Hungarian but other European swords of this kind of representative character.

While it seems clear that none of us participating are linguists, above all myself, we all agree that this sword posted by Corrado is an intriguing example and the ensuing 'discussion' that has so tickled David is actually some pretty interesting and constructive interaction which is keenly pertinent.

Although no linguistically skilled reader has stepped forward as requested, those of us here have tried to determine the possible origin and period of the sword in hopes of finding the context which might assess the language (or lack thereof) of the inscription.
This is the very reason we have always asked for a picture of the entire weapon rather than simply the inscription alone.

The discussion became a constructive analysis of the sword pictured by Corrado rather than the often dismal avoidance and lack of entries encountered by readers who altogether too often feel they have nothing to add. I have always greatly appreciated the sometimes lengthy development of a topic in a thread which adds to the context and scope concerning a weapon in discussion, even if wavering from a specific question.

On that note, Ariel, I do understand that two carry rings in European scabbard manner dictate the sword worn edge down.....however this example in the OP, has this carry ring at center of scabbard throat, as in Caucasian manner seen on shashkas as I mentioned. The other carry ring is on the side of the scabbard . The sabre posted by Kubur just previous shows carry rings on the side as you describe and interestingly has an inscription much in the manner of the OP sword and question.

Meanwhile, I do hope that the inscription might be translated by a reader who reads these types of lettering.

David R · 27th March 2019, 11:30 PM

You get some odd scripts on Islamic blades of the 19th 20th centuries I am trying to remember the term, possibly "Thuluth", it turns up a lot on Mahdist's swords... Could this be a retro-script on a captured Turkish sword.

Jim McDougall · 28th March 2019, 01:39 AM

That's a good suggestion David, and you're right there do seem to be some unusual scripts used in Islamic context. The 'thuluth' you mention used on Mahdist swords is actually found as well in Mamluk metalwork and typically bold characters which are acid etched. As I say I am far from being even close to any linguistic skills, but unsure this would qualify.

I tried looking into other scripts and found Perso-Arabic script for the Tajik language, which was used in Uzbekistan, Kazakstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Turkmenistan. Ukraine and Afghanistan and surely others where this people locate. Ottoman presence and influence was remarkably wide of course, which is why we have tried to consider these regions to find close match to the inscription.

While not a match perhaps, it might be a script which influenced that in this inscription if is is indeed not in an exact language, but then the range would widen greatly. All we can do is try at this point until we get a response from someone who recognizes this.

26th March 2019, 11:06 PM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Yep look and please look at the silver hilt much more simple than the one posted Attached Images

27th March 2019, 04:58 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Actually it is quite true that Victrix has a very astutely suggested observation toward the translation in gold on the blade, in that it may well be a faux Arabic lettering as has been known in not only Hungarian but other European swords of this kind of representative character. While it seems clear that none of us participating are linguists, above all myself, we all agree that this sword posted by Corrado is an intriguing example and the ensuing 'discussion' that has so tickled David is actually some pretty interesting and constructive interaction which is keenly pertinent. Although no linguistically skilled reader has stepped forward as requested, those of us here have tried to determine the possible origin and period of the sword in hopes of finding the context which might assess the language (or lack thereof) of the inscription. This is the very reason we have always asked for a picture of the entire weapon rather than simply the inscription alone. The discussion became a constructive analysis of the sword pictured by Corrado rather than the often dismal avoidance and lack of entries encountered by readers who altogether too often feel they have nothing to add. I have always greatly appreciated the sometimes lengthy development of a topic in a thread which adds to the context and scope concerning a weapon in discussion, even if wavering from a specific question. On that note, Ariel, I do understand that two carry rings in European scabbard manner dictate the sword worn edge down.....however this example in the OP, has this carry ring at center of scabbard throat, as in Caucasian manner seen on shashkas as I mentioned. The other carry ring is on the side of the scabbard . The sabre posted by Kubur just previous shows carry rings on the side as you describe and interestingly has an inscription much in the manner of the OP sword and question. Meanwhile, I do hope that the inscription might be translated by a reader who reads these types of lettering. Attached Images

28th March 2019, 01:39 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	That's a good suggestion David, and you're right there do seem to be some unusual scripts used in Islamic context. The 'thuluth' you mention used on Mahdist swords is actually found as well in Mamluk metalwork and typically bold characters which are acid etched. As I say I am far from being even close to any linguistic skills, but unsure this would qualify. I tried looking into other scripts and found Perso-Arabic script for the Tajik language, which was used in Uzbekistan, Kazakstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Turkmenistan. Ukraine and Afghanistan and surely others where this people locate. Ottoman presence and influence was remarkably wide of course, which is why we have tried to consider these regions to find close match to the inscription. While not a match perhaps, it might be a script which influenced that in this inscription if is is indeed not in an exact language, but then the range would widen greatly. All we can do is try at this point until we get a response from someone who recognizes this. Attached Images

27th March 2019, 03:44 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It is simpler, but at least it has intact langets:-)

27th March 2019, 02:45 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	You guys crack me up. 25 posts later and Victrix is the only one who so much as even addressed the one question Corrado actually asked about this sword. I mean, i know we don't want anything to get in the way of everyone taking their usual snipes at each other, but can anyone translate the script on the blade or is it perhaps as Vic suggested, just pseudo-Arabic? Anyone?

27th March 2019, 11:30 PM	#5
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,116	You get some odd scripts on Islamic blades of the 19th 20th centuries I am trying to remember the term, possibly "Thuluth", it turns up a lot on Mahdist's swords... Could this be a retro-script on a captured Turkish sword.