For comment #2

[Green]

Excellent and very reasonable comment/explanation David!
But here's the thing. for me, I am forever grateful to those that show their blades, especially from serious and well respected collectors! because this is the only way I can learn. I personally have almost never comment on the 'quality' of a blade - any blade- primarily because I don't know enough and also as a mark of respect but sometimes do ask some points that I want to understand more regarding a particular blade.

but regarding the 'culture' of Indonesians NOT to show their blades for some mystical reasons , I guess this is not strictly correct, because for the last several years I've visited quite a few keris exhibitions in Indonesia, in places where keris culture is very deep, such as in Medan, Sumatera, Bone Sulawesi, Various places in Bali, Solo, Jogjakarta , Nganjuk and Jakarta.

Virtually all of the keris in the 'pameran' (exhibition) are old and I guess some are pusakas (Unless the exhibition is specifically for kemardikan keris)

[David]

Originally Posted by Green

Excellent and very reasonable comment/explanation David!
But here's the thing. for me, I am forever grateful to those that show their blades, especially from serious and well respected collectors! because this is the only way I can learn. I personally have almost never comment on the 'quality' of a blade - any blade- primarily because I don't know enough and also as a mark of respect but sometimes do ask some points that I want to understand more regarding a particular blade.

Well, i feel exactly the same way. I am always grateful to those who choose to show their blades in these public forums because i do not have the opportunity to see good keris otherwise.

Originally Posted by Green

but regarding the 'culture' of Indonesians NOT to show their blades for some mystical reasons , I guess this is not strictly correct, because for the last several years I've visited quite a few keris exhibitions in Indonesia, in places where keris culture is very deep, such as in Medan, Sumatera, Bone Sulawesi, Various places in Bali, Solo, Jogjakarta , Nganjuk and Jakarta.

Virtually all of the keris in the 'pameran' (exhibition) are old and I guess some are pusakas (Unless the exhibition is specifically for kemardikan keris)

Well Nik, i think we also have to consider what was and what is. Certainly a lot has changed in the keris world, not only over the centuries, but especially in the last almost 50 years since the beginning of the keris "resurgence". Many things are new in todays keris cultures that not too many years ago would never be considered. And so we have many new names for dhapurs and pamors and new ideas for what is proper and what may not be. I believe that there is, no doubt, a lot of young blood in the keris circles in Jawa that choose to take a different perspective of things than their forerunners. But there is also a more traditional and conservative base of keris aficionados that are more likely to follow the older ways. As is always the way with any living culture, things change, for better and for worse.

[Marcokeris]

Another sarong like the others ( not mine .... a mine Javanese friend has this keris)

[A. G. Maisey]

Nik, over the time I have been a contributor to this Forum I have made it clear that I will not show a blade of a keris, or other item of tosan aji that I regard as a part of my personal collection. I could probably write a 5000 word essay on why I feel that it is improper to display one's personal possessions, and I could give reasons based in my own Australian/Irish culture, reasons based in Chinese culture, with which I have a strong connection, and reasons based in Javanese culture.

But I'm not going to write that essay. David has covered some of my rationale in his post # 12; in this thread, post 14,

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24790

Jean raised a similar matter, and I responded in this way:-

Jean, any keris that a person regards as his keris should only be shown to another person subject to certain restrictions. These restrictions very definitely apply to me, but to you and other collectors who are outside the culture of the keris the restrictions do not apply. When I was accepted for training by Empu Suparman I lost a lot of the freedoms that I might otherwise have had. I have certain commitments to fulfil, certain obligations and a very strict code of ethics. These things do not apply to you.

Reduced to bare minimums, this is probably the most accurate answer I can give. I could give a multitude of examples to re-enforce that answer, but when it gets right down to the bone, that is the reason.

Now, as for the keris culture of the present day, as it is practiced in a multitude of places. I am most definitely not a part of that culture, and I will never be.

As for images viewed on a computer screen being a good way to learn about keris, I'm sorry, but although it may be possible to gain some extremely superficial knowledge that relates only to form, it is simply not possible in my opinion to learn much that is worthwhile about the Keris from an image on a computer screen --- and even less, as is increasingly the case, from an image on a hand phone (mobile, cell, or whatever else one may call these inventions of Satan).

But I guess, in the final analysis it all comes down to one simple thing:- if one needs to ask a question like this, one will never understand the answer.

[Green]

Alan;

Many thanks for your honest answer and I respect your conviction.

As an aside, although I totally agree with you about one not being able to fully grasp the subtleties of a keris blade from pictures, no matter how high the resolution is unless one can hold it in one's own hand, unfortunately in my case most of my buying is based on pictures from trusted sellers and collectors - a large part of which come from western collections. I consider this as my very modest effort to bring back home those that have travelled far outside their original culture. And if I may add, many of which are in a very sorry state where the blades have been 'abused' by over zealous cleaning into shiny silvery surface, which is definitely not the right way to treat them . but we've gone over this- my pet beef- before.

[A. G. Maisey]

The buying thing can be a problem Nik, and I probably understand this as well as, or maybe better than, most, because I sell from pictures, even though I almost never buy from pics. I do not buy from pics because I do not need to, I sell from pics because other people do need them to buy from.

But buying a keris from a picture is very, very different to understanding that keris, and in my opinion, the understanding can never come from a picture, no matter how good that image may be.

Incorrect attempts at cleaning and restoration can be regrettable, but so can failure to give sympathetic care to a keris, or anything else for that matter. A long time back I bought a box of keris, about 20 or 30 of them, mostly Bugis style, that looked as if they had spent the previous 100 years in the bottom of a Dutch dyke*. But they all restored well.

*I am writing Standard English.

[Green]

Alan;

LOL..you do have a fine sense of humor... that * helps.

But would love to see those box of bugis if you still keep them... as i collect bugis...both malaysian/patani bugis, and bugis bugis...

[A. G. Maisey]

NiK, that box of Bugis was bought in about 1980, they were restored and sold long ago. They were all complete, but nothing of any quality amongst them.