Translation please

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

With respect, if this is the best you have seen to me it appears rather poor. I am not a specialist in this area but it is not fine work. However production can depend on many circumstances such as war where art standards are not the main aim.

I noticed that many forum members are passive agressive, it's not necessary.
I can have an easy answer (like Ariel) "please show us better examples"
I suspect that the mounts and hilt are full silver with proof marks (and thughra) and the blade is really good too with a nice inscription.
Mine is not good as this one and many military swords published are not good as this one (the guard is dammaged unfortunately).
So please show us better examples.

[Jim McDougall]

It seems to me this is indeed a sabre intended for a military officer, and the blade is perhaps older than the mounts as it has interesting deep fullering. The mounts are of course in Ottoman style and heavily silver clad. While not of perhaps of the highest quality, I am wondering if this work might be from a more remote region in the Ottoman influenced sphere. It would seem that if in more directly controlled area, such work would carry a hallmark.

What I think is most notable on the scabbard is the carry mounts, which are situated in the manner found on Caucasian shashkas. The device on the blade, while mindful of Ottoman tughra, appears to be intended in that sense, but not following typical convention.

It would be good to see this interesting inscribed cartouche translated, if nothing else to determine the language used. While I am not saying this sword is Russian, it reminds me of instances of 'trophy' blades mounted in their cultural sphere.

[Kubur]

Hi Jim

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I am wondering if this work might be from a more remote region in the Ottoman influenced sphere.

Absolutely not, it's the opposite, good work from Itanbul Constantinople

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

What I think is most notable on the scabbard is the carry mounts, which are situated in the manner found on Caucasian shashkas.

It's typical from this style of Ottoman Turkish swords

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The device on the blade, while mindful of Ottoman tughra, appears to be intended in that sense, but not following typical convention.
.

Really, I'm not sure about that. It's typical to me.
I don't know how you can say that...

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I
it reminds me of instances of 'trophy' blades mounted in their cultural sphere.

Finally one point where we agree
This kind of sword has very often trophy blades, very often from Caucasian shashka or others

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Really, I'm not sure about that. It's typical to me.
I don't know how you can say that...




Finally one point where we agree
This kind of sword has very often trophy blades, very often from Caucasian shashka or others

Kubur, I am extremely pleased that we have 'one' point of agreement! I cannot resist feeling a sense of triumph. There are of course instances of trophy blades in many swords but Russian ones I have seen come to mind here, with what seems to be perhaps an East European blade.


On the tughra, I think we have here a matter of Rorschach perspective.

While these symbolic devices used as personal seals and monogram or heraldic emblems, which have long Turkic history, are regarded as Ottoman, they were widely used in other cases in degree following the Ottoman style.


In looking at the systemic dynamics of the 'tughra', which to me always looked a bit like an amoeba (in a sense, and leaning toward the psychological context of course, as per Rorschach).......this device does not seem to follow 'tughra' conventions'.

Perhaps this was how I might have said what you may have regarded as tughra heresy and why I thought since this sword seemed 'out of direct Ottoman sphere' the device might be a variant recalling the tughra.


Obviously I do not share your expertise on these, so I hope you might enlighten me (and others reading) on the spectrum of tughra variants which are outside the set patterns I have attached.


Also attached is the device on the sword posted which looks more like an 'ace of clubs' in the playing card suit system.

[Kubur]

Hi Jim,

You will be happy: I dont see any tughra on this blade... do you?

You have more imagination than me!

I was talking about the real tughras on the silver...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Jim,

You will be happy: I dont see any tughra on this blade... do you?

You have more imagination than me!

I was talking about the real tughras on the silver...

Ahah!!! We have the dreaded miscommunication I thought you were talking about the device on the blade as I had mentioned it did not look like a typical tughra.......so agreed, I dont see a 'conventional' tughra.

Now you are pointing out these features in the motif of the silvered material, which I think you might be regarding as 'hallmarks' (?) not tughras, am I correct? I cannot make them out (old eyes). I had not thought of tughras being placed as part of decorative motif in a hilt.

It is often hard communicating these things in specialized terms and phrases which are essentially foreign (at least to me) so thank you for patience in getting on the same page.

[Tim Simmons]

I do not mean to be aggressive in anyway . Hyping up poor quality really serves no good. It stunts development , research , learning and worst of all art appreciation. Sorry if that sounds hard but do you really want to push prices up for lesser work.