Warning to bid by Schuler auctions Zürich

A. G. Maisey · 24th March 2019, 02:34 AM

Do auction houses make too much money?

I understand "--- make too much money---" as "make too high a profit".

In simple terms, a profit can never be too high, if any business entity can extract high returns from the market it services, that means it must be doing something right --- and if it is not doing something right, you can bet on it, it will go under.

Then we have the case of Bonhams, elite, old UK firm. Not long ago I think they sold out to a private equity firm. Why did they sell? Why did a private equity firm buy? I'd be very interested in the reasons.

But maybe we think that a business entity is charging too high a rate for what it provides?

We could perhaps start by looking at share prices.

Since ebay is an auction company, we might start with ebay.

Then do a comparative analysis of ebay with houses like Sothebys & Christies.

There's a nice exercise for somebody with time to spare:- do an analysis of the viability of auction houses as investment vehicles.

Or forget all of that bean counter nonsense--- that I've spent most of my life on --- and simply say, "well I reckon they charge too much", and walk away.

Which, as a both a buyer & seller, is what I did years ago.

Then again, perhaps we might like to consider the integrity question. Anybody here ever been involved in the auction of real estate?

Personally I want nothing at all to do with auctions.

ariel · 24th March 2019, 02:56 PM

Under normal circumstances the eBay or some auction houses state shipping prices from the get go. The buyer can calculate the total and make an informed decision whether to bid or not.
The problem comes when the buyer has info only about the auction side of the story including auction fees. Then, suddenly, shipping company comes into play and can quote outrageous fees.
The buyer then faces a dilemma: to pay the shipper a sum that makes the entire deal financially crazy or cancel the entire deal. But the auction has the buyer’s credit card number, charges it and on top of that starts collecting storage fees.

I faced such a situation once with a European source. Had to pay.....

Fortunately, nothing similar happened with the US shipping services. Sure, the costs were exaggerated, but tolerably so.

Personally, I think that the “righteous indignation” decision to travel ( as described here) makes very little practical sense: the trip will cost €60 for the tickets plus some more for travel meals plus a cab for the trip from the bus station to and from the auction house, but a whole day of life will be lost. Buyer’s “savings” come up to ~ €8 per hour, about as high as Burger King’s hamburger flipper’s minimal wage.

But still, a pox on both the auction and the shipping houses!

corrado26 · 24th March 2019, 03:14 PM

These shipping mentality which seems to be the same like street robbery was reason enough for me never to buy anything at auction houses. Their fees itself are so impertinent, so why should I help to make them richer and richer?

Blacksmith · 24th March 2019, 03:31 PM

For some time ago I won an Persian blunberbuss pistol via online bidding.I made the payment, the auction house verified the payment and I started to wait the shipping.
Then after a couple of weeks I was looking the online catalogue of an another auction house and find my blunderbuss there! I immediately contacted the auction house and asked how and where they got the pistol and attached the link to the original auction and also my reciept of the payment. Also tried to contact the GW Auction by phone and email.
GWA never answered but luckily the other auction house cancelled the bidding of the blunderbuss.After a week I got mail from the GWA, they just informed that my pistoll was shipped to me.No apology, no explanation other than "mistake happens". After that I have not bid anything from the GWA.The pistol was not cheap and just wonder how this can happen and also the reaction ( or lack of it) of the Great Western Auction.
Regards Tapani

Kmaddock · 24th March 2019, 03:58 PM

Hi
In Ireland I find shipping all very casual and easy from auction houses.

I have had 3 swords shipped and packed for 12 euro,
A pistol for 10 and lots of other such food deals, some even next day delivery.

I find the approach of ringing them directly being pleasant and not at all pushy works well.
I ask them to post or courier whichever is most convienent to them and never demand or ask for Quick delivery. Generally they are v prompt

I have never being refused and have several times when paying offered the auction more to pay for a bottle of wine as a thank you, some accept some don’t.

As for auction house fees in Ireland sellers fees after some negotiation come in at 15 % ,I have been quoted 25% but have gotten them down a bit and have stuck with my favorite auction house for several years and they have always honored our negotiated price.

For their commission the auction house I use, do in my opinion, do a good job, great publicity, very good photos and v good front of house staff with great access to professional experts in their field

I sell approx 15 items a year and they get good prices and have never given me any issues, they expose what I am selling to a very diverse international audience which I feel 15% is a v good price.

I bought one item for 50 euro from one auction house, put it in the car drove 3 km down the road got an expert opinion on the item and they sold it for 2100. Definitely worth the 15 % as it gives the stamp of approval and authority to the items you are selling. Sometimes I know more on what I am selling so I give them the facts which once they check it out gets included in the description. A symbiotic rather than a parasitic relationship.

Regards

Ken

Jens Nordlunde · 24th March 2019, 05:06 PM

Ken,
You are a very lucky man, to live where you live - besides from the lovely countryside.

Tapani,
I have never heard anything like what you describe, it is quite chocking.

Alan,
I think you have a very valid point - it is business for the auction firms, and for the firms packing and sending the items as well. Maybe they charge too much, I dont know, but as they still excist the buyers must have accepted their prices.
I have a feeling that the buyers concentrate too much on the price they are willing to pay for an item, and less on the extras. The extras you can find out before you start bidding, so you know how high you are willing to bid - a kind of belt and suspenders thing.

Sajen · 24th March 2019, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

The extras you can find out before you start bidding, so you know how high you are willing to bid - a kind of belt and suspenders thing.

Hello Jens,

I can understand the business they want to have and they should have it. But when you have to do the first time with this auction house you run in a dilemma you can't imagine before. The reason why I start this thread and to give a warning to others.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 24th March 2019, 08:45 PM

Jens, yes, precisely so:-

selling things for other people is a business

packing and sending things is a business

a business will die if it charges either too much, or too little

Do auction houses and those who do the shipping for them charge too much?

Frankly, I do not know, but I decided a long time ago that as far as my pocket was concerned, yes, they did.

But maybe the people who still use them think their charges are reasonable.

However, if I lived in Ireland, maybe I would still be looking at auction catalogues, and selling things I no longer wanted by auction.

Sajen · 24th March 2019, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Personally, I think that the “righteous indignation” decision to travel ( as described here) makes very little practical sense: the trip will cost €60 for the tickets plus some more for travel meals plus a cab for the trip from the bus station to and from the auction house, but a whole day of life will be lost. Buyer’s “savings” come up to ~ €8 per hour, about as high as Burger King’s hamburger flipper’s minimal wage.

But still, a pox on both the auction and the shipping houses!

Hello Ariel,

For sure it makes very little practical sense. I would have ordered UPS or an other organization to pick it up over there but when they don't even pack it...
I'll start from my place in the evening with a meal before and sitting in the bus over night and arrive in Zürich early in the morning and will take the tram instead of a cab to the auction house, I will have one meal in Zürich before (which don't will be cheap) I go back with the bus at noon and arrive back in the next night in Dortmund, a big bottle of water and some bananas will be my victuals.

It's worth the pox on the auction house and the shipping organisation.

Regards,
Detlef

24th March 2019, 02:56 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Under normal circumstances the eBay or some auction houses state shipping prices from the get go. The buyer can calculate the total and make an informed decision whether to bid or not. The problem comes when the buyer has info only about the auction side of the story including auction fees. Then, suddenly, shipping company comes into play and can quote outrageous fees. The buyer then faces a dilemma: to pay the shipper a sum that makes the entire deal financially crazy or cancel the entire deal. But the auction has the buyer’s credit card number, charges it and on top of that starts collecting storage fees. I faced such a situation once with a European source. Had to pay..... Fortunately, nothing similar happened with the US shipping services. Sure, the costs were exaggerated, but tolerably so. Personally, I think that the “righteous indignation” decision to travel ( as described here) makes very little practical sense: the trip will cost €60 for the tickets plus some more for travel meals plus a cab for the trip from the bus station to and from the auction house, but a whole day of life will be lost. Buyer’s “savings” come up to ~ €8 per hour, about as high as Burger King’s hamburger flipper’s minimal wage. But still, a pox on both the auction and the shipping houses! Last edited by ariel; 24th March 2019 at 03:18 PM.

24th March 2019, 03:31 PM	#4
Blacksmith Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 98	Warning to bid Great Western Auctions, Glasgow! For some time ago I won an Persian blunberbuss pistol via online bidding.I made the payment, the auction house verified the payment and I started to wait the shipping. Then after a couple of weeks I was looking the online catalogue of an another auction house and find my blunderbuss there! I immediately contacted the auction house and asked how and where they got the pistol and attached the link to the original auction and also my reciept of the payment. Also tried to contact the GW Auction by phone and email. GWA never answered but luckily the other auction house cancelled the bidding of the blunderbuss.After a week I got mail from the GWA, they just informed that my pistoll was shipped to me.No apology, no explanation other than "mistake happens". After that I have not bid anything from the GWA.The pistol was not cheap and just wonder how this can happen and also the reaction ( or lack of it) of the Great Western Auction. Regards Tapani

24th March 2019, 02:34 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Do auction houses make too much money? I understand "--- make too much money---" as "make too high a profit". In simple terms, a profit can never be too high, if any business entity can extract high returns from the market it services, that means it must be doing something right --- and if it is not doing something right, you can bet on it, it will go under. Then we have the case of Bonhams, elite, old UK firm. Not long ago I think they sold out to a private equity firm. Why did they sell? Why did a private equity firm buy? I'd be very interested in the reasons. But maybe we think that a business entity is charging too high a rate for what it provides? We could perhaps start by looking at share prices. Since ebay is an auction company, we might start with ebay. Then do a comparative analysis of ebay with houses like Sothebys & Christies. There's a nice exercise for somebody with time to spare:- do an analysis of the viability of auction houses as investment vehicles. Or forget all of that bean counter nonsense--- that I've spent most of my life on --- and simply say, "well I reckon they charge too much", and walk away. Which, as a both a buyer & seller, is what I did years ago. Then again, perhaps we might like to consider the integrity question. Anybody here ever been involved in the auction of real estate? Personally I want nothing at all to do with auctions.

24th March 2019, 03:14 PM	#3
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	These shipping mentality which seems to be the same like street robbery was reason enough for me never to buy anything at auction houses. Their fees itself are so impertinent, so why should I help to make them richer and richer?

24th March 2019, 03:58 PM	#5
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi In Ireland I find shipping all very casual and easy from auction houses. I have had 3 swords shipped and packed for 12 euro, A pistol for 10 and lots of other such food deals, some even next day delivery. I find the approach of ringing them directly being pleasant and not at all pushy works well. I ask them to post or courier whichever is most convienent to them and never demand or ask for Quick delivery. Generally they are v prompt I have never being refused and have several times when paying offered the auction more to pay for a bottle of wine as a thank you, some accept some don’t. As for auction house fees in Ireland sellers fees after some negotiation come in at 15 % ,I have been quoted 25% but have gotten them down a bit and have stuck with my favorite auction house for several years and they have always honored our negotiated price. For their commission the auction house I use, do in my opinion, do a good job, great publicity, very good photos and v good front of house staff with great access to professional experts in their field I sell approx 15 items a year and they get good prices and have never given me any issues, they expose what I am selling to a very diverse international audience which I feel 15% is a v good price. I bought one item for 50 euro from one auction house, put it in the car drove 3 km down the road got an expert opinion on the item and they sold it for 2100. Definitely worth the 15 % as it gives the stamp of approval and authority to the items you are selling. Sometimes I know more on what I am selling so I give them the facts which once they check it out gets included in the description. A symbiotic rather than a parasitic relationship. Regards Ken

24th March 2019, 05:06 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ken, You are a very lucky man, to live where you live - besides from the lovely countryside. Tapani, I have never heard anything like what you describe, it is quite chocking. Alan, I think you have a very valid point - it is business for the auction firms, and for the firms packing and sending the items as well. Maybe they charge too much, I dont know, but as they still excist the buyers must have accepted their prices. I have a feeling that the buyers concentrate too much on the price they are willing to pay for an item, and less on the extras. The extras you can find out before you start bidding, so you know how high you are willing to bid - a kind of belt and suspenders thing.

24th March 2019, 08:45 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Jens, yes, precisely so:- selling things for other people is a business packing and sending things is a business a business will die if it charges either too much, or too little Do auction houses and those who do the shipping for them charge too much? Frankly, I do not know, but I decided a long time ago that as far as my pocket was concerned, yes, they did. But maybe the people who still use them think their charges are reasonable. However, if I lived in Ireland, maybe I would still be looking at auction catalogues, and selling things I no longer wanted by auction.