Wootz Dagger, Persian?

Kubur · 1st March 2019, 09:33 PM

Hi
Kurdish dagger northern Iran.
The blade is Persian and old 19th c. but the hilt looks early 20th c.

William Fox · 1st March 2019, 10:29 PM

I am so impressed by the knowledge of the people who contribute to this forum. Thank you so much for your advice.

The handle looks used, (pretty old), but I agree not as old as the blade. I attach some more pictures of the handle/grip, as well as the scabbard.

Please note the wire wrap at the tip of the scabbard, and also little strips of the same wire running through the scabbard joining seam. There are the remains of velvet at the throat of the scabbard, but it is well worn.

Is the consensus that this is a Kurdish style khanjar from Northern Iraq? I was in Irbil a few years ago, but didn't buy this dagger there.

ariel · 1st March 2019, 10:46 PM

Kurdish or not can be inferred only from the handle. But if it was replaced, the only orientir is lost.

Elgood makes an excellent point that Indian swords ( and, likely, daggers) should be usually viewed as a “marriage” of unrelated blades and handles. In fact, he suggests that perfect matching usually means late 19-early 20th century manufacture in one or another Royal workshops. He stresses that Victoria/Albert collection obtained early consists largely of mismatched samples, whereas Wallace collection assembled after 1870, is virtually 100% perfectly matched:-)

With better pics: blade Persian, scabbard Ottoman, handle replacement. Overall, looks good and sufficiently old to be real.

Kubur · 2nd March 2019, 12:05 PM

I agree 100% with Ariel, but I disagree on the last sentence.
The scabbard is pure Persian, I have seen many like that.
Persians liked the green, color of islam and shiaa.
The scabbard is 19th c and matches perfectly with the blade.

William Fox · 2nd March 2019, 08:29 PM

I am curious about the varying quality of wootz steel. This dagger blade is attractive, but the pattern appears crude compared with the Persian sword I own that I posted on this site some time ago. I guess as with any art, the level of excellence of wootz steel blades varied over time and place, from smith to smith.

ariel · 3rd March 2019, 01:12 AM

My attribution of the scabbard to Ottoman Empire stems purely from the wire stitching.
If we assume that the handle ( likely the most recent component) is N. Iraqi, that area till the end of WWI belonged to the Ottomans. Persian blades were sold all over. Iraq has large Shia populations, and even Sunni had nothing against the color of Muhammed’s Banner.
All these assumptions are exactly that and no more. I might be wrong, but at least I have some potentially supportive arguments. If anybody points out to their lack of validity, I will not argue.

Kubur · 3rd March 2019, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

My attribution of the scabbard to Ottoman Empire stems purely from the wire stitching.

Incorrect you have also wire stitching in the Persian empire

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

If we assume that the handle ( likely the most recent component) is N. Iraqi,

Incorrect the handle is North Iran where you have also Kurdish people

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

even Sunni had nothing against the color of Muhammed’s Banner.

Correct

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I might be wrong, but at least I have some potentially supportive arguments. If anybody points out to their lack of validity, I will not argue.

Please look at catalogues, museums and even on the web, you will see that you are wrong.
And there is nothing bad about it, i do mistakes every single day. But i learn.

1st March 2019, 10:29 PM	#2
William Fox Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Great Britain Posts: 24	I am so impressed by the knowledge of the people who contribute to this forum. Thank you so much for your advice. The handle looks used, (pretty old), but I agree not as old as the blade. I attach some more pictures of the handle/grip, as well as the scabbard. Please note the wire wrap at the tip of the scabbard, and also little strips of the same wire running through the scabbard joining seam. There are the remains of velvet at the throat of the scabbard, but it is well worn. Is the consensus that this is a Kurdish style khanjar from Northern Iraq? I was in Irbil a few years ago, but didn't buy this dagger there. Attached Images

1st March 2019, 09:33 PM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Kurdish dagger northern Iran. The blade is Persian and old 19th c. but the hilt looks early 20th c.

1st March 2019, 10:46 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kurdish or not can be inferred only from the handle. But if it was replaced, the only orientir is lost. Elgood makes an excellent point that Indian swords ( and, likely, daggers) should be usually viewed as a “marriage” of unrelated blades and handles. In fact, he suggests that perfect matching usually means late 19-early 20th century manufacture in one or another Royal workshops. He stresses that Victoria/Albert collection obtained early consists largely of mismatched samples, whereas Wallace collection assembled after 1870, is virtually 100% perfectly matched:-) With better pics: blade Persian, scabbard Ottoman, handle replacement. Overall, looks good and sufficiently old to be real.

2nd March 2019, 12:05 PM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I agree 100% with Ariel, but I disagree on the last sentence. The scabbard is pure Persian, I have seen many like that. Persians liked the green, color of islam and shiaa. The scabbard is 19th c and matches perfectly with the blade.

2nd March 2019, 08:29 PM	#5
William Fox Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Great Britain Posts: 24	I am curious about the varying quality of wootz steel. This dagger blade is attractive, but the pattern appears crude compared with the Persian sword I own that I posted on this site some time ago. I guess as with any art, the level of excellence of wootz steel blades varied over time and place, from smith to smith.

3rd March 2019, 01:12 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My attribution of the scabbard to Ottoman Empire stems purely from the wire stitching. If we assume that the handle ( likely the most recent component) is N. Iraqi, that area till the end of WWI belonged to the Ottomans. Persian blades were sold all over. Iraq has large Shia populations, and even Sunni had nothing against the color of Muhammed’s Banner. All these assumptions are exactly that and no more. I might be wrong, but at least I have some potentially supportive arguments. If anybody points out to their lack of validity, I will not argue.