Any sources on non-moro Philippine forging?

[kai]

Hello SL,

seems to be a narrative around that the best or working Filipino blades are only of moro origin....

That the use of cast iron along with the forging skills of Visayans/Luzon produced brittle and low quality swords in comparison their "cultured" neighbors.

I'm having a deja vu moment...

Please have a look at this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23453

I'm not sure who continues to spread this myth that Filipino blades were subpar - it sure ain't folks who seriously studied antique blades from all those cultures!

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

Deja vu indeed Kai.
I was looking at this post in the queue and wondering if it might just be intended to be provocative in nature being such a generalization.

I'd love to hear the rationale behind this post.

[kino]

Originally Posted by ShazamsLaw

I don't recall Visayan blades having that type of quality steel. More or less they mostly worked with iron "as breakable as glass" which they imported from china.

The above quote is from another thread, discussing a "Giant Tenegre".
The statement was so preposterous that I just ignored it.

Shazam, where do you get your information from?

[ShazamsLaw]

Originally Posted by kino

The above quote is from another thread, discussing a "Giant Tenegre".
The statement was so preposterous that I just ignored it.

Shazam, where do you get your information from?

There is a source from a document on the pre-hispanic blades of Filipinos by William Henry Scott recorded in his book "Barangay"

It was recorrded in his book that the major source of iron used was cast iron which was imported from China.
This type of iron was described by Bornean pilot to be "as easy to break as glass with any blow they give it" which William believes to be only a slight exaggeration. Never the less, cast iron is a type of metal considered to be to be the best fit for making swords and tools.

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by ShazamsLaw

There is a source from a document on the pre-hispanic blades of Filipinos by William Henry Scott recorded in his book "Barangay"

It was recorrded in his book that the major source of iron used was cast iron which was imported from China.
This type of iron was described by Bornean pilot to be "as easy to break as glass with any blow they give it" which William believes to be only a slight exaggeration. Never the less, cast iron is a type of metal considered to be to be the best fit for making swords and tools.

Hi Shazam,

With all due respect to sir Henry Scott, there's been much criticism from academicians regarding his claims / interpretation of pre-colonial Philippine history. Personally, I take it with a grain of salt, as what he's based it on isn't in turn verified by historians as authentic, definite documents. There have been instances before when fake documents are taken as 'authentic'- see the Code of Maragtas regarding this.

I think the best basis for discussion here, and the most tangible as well, would be to assess the oldest Philippine blades that have been shown in this forum.

[Sajen]

We have discussed not long ago the exceptional tenegre from our member Roland, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=tenegre
At end of this thread Roland mentioned already that it is a wootz blade, I've seen the sword not long ago in person, like Ian in the above thread I was more as doubtfully that this could be possible. But to my great surprise I have to agree, the blade is wootz!
Here with the permission from Roland a close-up picture taken as documentation for the restoration steps.
So bad are Visayan blades!

[Sajen]

Soon as Roland has finished his work will follow more and better pictures!

[ShazamsLaw]

Originally Posted by xasterix

Hi Shazam,

With all due respect to sir Henry Scott, there's been much criticism from academicians regarding his claims / interpretation of pre-colonial Philippine history. Personally, I take it with a grain of salt, as what he's based it on isn't in turn verified by historians as authentic, definite documents. There have been instances before when fake documents are taken as 'authentic'- see the Code of Maragtas regarding this.

I think the best basis for discussion here, and the most tangible as well, would be to assess the oldest Philippine blades that have been shown in this forum.

I've actually never heard of any criticism towards Scott's works, in fact he was the one that debunked the Code of Maragtas or "code of kalantiaw". When Scott was examining prehispanic sources for the study of Philippine history he demonstrated that the code was a forgery committed by Marco. He even published his findings debunking the code in his book Prehispanic Source Materials for the Study of Philippine History.

Under what topic or source had historians took Williams claims into questioning?

[kai]

Hello Rick,

I was looking at this post in the queue and wondering if it might just be intended to be provocative in nature being such a generalization.

I'd love to hear the rationale behind this post.

Seems like the "bad press" got widely distributed; would be interesting to hear whether the current question got based on the same sources already quoted in the old thread or whether it's still going virulent?

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

To sum up my earlier comments in the thread cited above:

There always were low quality blades, in all cultures (including medieval Japan, Europe, etc.); good craftmanship and, especially, quality materials were just too expensive for less affluent strata of any traditional society.

There always were high quality blades in all ethnic groups throughout the Philippines (as well as most Indonesian regions). There are enough surviving antique examples from any of these groups which attest to the bladesmithing skills of their ancestors.

There certainly are antique Moro blades of lousy quality found, too.

Cast steel was economically produced in China and widely exported all over Southeast Asia (and beyond). This steel was of lesser quality - it can be improved upon by skilled blacksmithing though. Like with locally produced bloomery steel, this processing costs resources (fuel, considerable loss of material, labor & time) and may be cut short when trying to work for a heavily limited budget...

And it should be noted that the Moro also imported steel from China and a notable amount of barung blades even got trademarked with (often fake) Chinese marks. Seems that the source of the steel did not necessarily resulted in subpar blades...

Regards,
Kai

[Rafngard]

Hello all,

I do wonder if the number of WWII and later Vasayan talibongs (usually of low quality, and made for those who travel) is impacting the perception of Vasayan smiths here?

Perhaps the same is true of the ubiquitous "negrito bolo" blades from Luzon.

This is not to say that there aren't low quality, more modern, Moro blades. However, despite being someone who often bargain hunts on a certain auction site, I don't see these nearly as often as I see lower quality blades from the Vasayans or Luzon.

Even when a high quality (say a pre-WWI garab, or a Katipunan dagger) does come on the market, the ending price is often significantly higher than a (roughly) equivalent Moro piece.

So maybe the market that buyers, especially newer collectors, are seeing is influencing perception?

Have fun,
Leif

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by Rafngard

Hello all,

I do wonder if the number of WWII and later Vasayan talibongs (usually of low quality, and made for those who travel) is impacting the perception of Vasayan smiths here?

Perhaps the same is true of the ubiquitous "negrito bolo" blades from Luzon.

This is not to say that there aren't low quality, more modern, Moro blades. However, despite being someone who often bargain hunts on a certain auction site, I don't see these nearly as often as I see lower quality blades from the Vasayans or Luzon.

Even when a high quality (say a pre-WWI garab, or a Katipunan dagger) does come on the market, the ending price is often significantly higher than a (roughly) equivalent Moro piece.

So maybe the market that buyers, especially newer collectors, are seeing is influencing perception?

Have fun,
Leif

Hi Leif,

Allow me to share you what I know of the current PH traditional blade (tradblades) market. When I say tradblades, these are ethnographic weapons, not reproductions. All the modern ones I've held retain the 'feel' consistent with vintage and antique reproductions.

For Luzon and Visayas, the market for traditional fighting blades lags greatly behind reproduction blades. The area that shines are utility tradblades.

However, in Mindanao, modern trad fighting blades still abound, and are much sought-after.

Now, let's move on to the vintage and antique pieces. Vintage and antique pieces remaining in PH are few and far between, so when one encounters a vintage/antique, it's usually overpriced, much more than its usual selling price on eBay. Also, vintage/antique pieces are usually Moro in origin; it's difficult to search for Luzon- or Visayas-specific vintage/antique tradblades.

This is the reason why many collectors, at least in my age range, choose to collect modern tradblades. Aside from the shortage of vintage/antique supply, pricing of modern tradblades are easier on the wallet. Plus there are impressively built modern tradblades that handle almost the same as vintage/antique pieces.

[mross]

This thread concept like a bad penny will continue to turn up. Like a bad penny it's sorta interesting but not worth spending much time on.

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by Rafngard

Hello all,

I do wonder if the number of WWII and later Vasayan talibongs (usually of low quality, and made for those who travel) is impacting the perception of Vasayan smiths here?

Perhaps the same is true of the ubiquitous "negrito bolo" blades from Luzon.

This is not to say that there aren't low quality, more modern, Moro blades. However, despite being someone who often bargain hunts on a certain auction site, I don't see these nearly as often as I see lower quality blades from the Vasayans or Luzon.

Even when a high quality (say a pre-WWI garab, or a Katipunan dagger) does come on the market, the ending price is often significantly higher than a (roughly) equivalent Moro piece.

So maybe the market that buyers, especially newer collectors, are seeing is influencing perception?

Have fun,
Leif

Hi Leif,

Would like to inquire which talibong we are talking about. If we're talking about the Panay talibongs, an Ilonggo blade expert explained to me that the reason for the relatively not-so-sturdy construction of the whole sword was because aside from the blade itself, the other parts were meant to be easily replaceable; thus the sword is easily 'reborn' from any damage of previous battles. On hindsight, this may also have enabled easier customization (think lego blocks, especially the figural-hilts).

With regard to the so-called Leyte talibong (the fat belly guy), research is still being done on what exactly that sword is. The history of that sword is a bit murky; I've done some historical research myself and it's not explicitly stated in the earliest documents (1906 onwards) that was the exact weapon that the Pulahan/Pulajan/Pulahanes used.

With regards to Luzon- have any of you ever wondered why there's a shortage of Minasbad blades even on online auction sites? Something to think about.

But I'm already digressing from the main point. Hope this info on the Panay talibong is of help.