Ancient Zealot daggers

Jim McDougall · 15th April 2006, 10:44 AM

Ariel,
Outstanding, well thought out and beautifully worded ! I completely agree, and the material on the 'robber' activities and the Rabbi is extremely interesting information as well. Concise, comprehensive and pretty much conclusive post that addresses my original question categorically. Now to find more on those contemporary Roman weapons in use.
Nicely done , thank you

All the best,
Jim

fernando · 15th April 2006, 11:43 PM

please ignore this one

fernando · 15th April 2006, 11:48 PM

After all, the Sica was quite a famous weapon . Brought around by Thracians and Dacians, adopted by Romans and Zealots, everybody had a go at it. Forcingly there were several variations, but with the basic shape of a reaping device, so it seems. Here can be seen a Tracian Sica Supina, made in wood, for trainning purposes, found within the barracks of a Roman legion, in Oberaden. http://www.arsdimicandi.net/ad_1_0000b0.htm. Rudis is the name given by Romans for sword wood replicas, which can be either trainning pieces for the army exercises and gladiator rookies, as well as presentation swords to victorious gladiators, signifying they could retire from such tough business.
Dacian Sicas can be seen in Trajan's Column.http://cheiron.mcmaster.ca/~trajan/b...anpage.cgi?349
However i am personally convinced that the non combat Sica version, that one of Sicarius, be them Roman Sicarius, Zealot Sicarius, or the unamed Scum of the period, would be a shorter handy piece. Whether these concealed daggers were double or single edged, or simply free style, is something to be found out, as the chronicles do not coincide on this point.

Jim McDougall · 16th April 2006, 04:44 AM

More great info and threads Fernando, thank you!! I think you are right, a smaller handy form would be more in line with the stealth needed in carrying out the activities of sicarri. As Jens mentioned earlier, such a smaller and curved form would be ideal for such purpose, but not likely in more conventional combat or defense.
It seems like references to sica/sickle and such blades with inside cutting edge may well have been for throat slashing, as Jens suggests, but also very effective at the upward sweep in abdominal attack, as noted by Rick.
One thought that comes with Fernando's note on the Dacian form of sica, it seems that I had read somewhere that the Dacians had sickle type edged weapons, and one drawing I had seen captioned it a Dacian 'razor' knife.
Best regards,
Jim

ariel · 16th April 2006, 05:04 AM

In American prison parlance it would be called a Shiv.

Jim McDougall · 16th April 2006, 04:17 PM

Ahah Ariel!!! Good one! Its been a while since I heard that term......not from personal experience mind you

!!!!
Now my curiosity goes again....where does the 'shiv' term come from?

Best regards,
Jim

fernando · 18th April 2006, 11:58 PM

there you are
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiv_%28weapon%29

fearn · 19th April 2006, 05:19 AM

This is a great discussion. One point I'm not convinced on, though, is that a sica was a strongly defined type of blade. We could be dealing something similar to the English "knife" or the Chinese/Burmese/etc. "dao," where the term is loosely defined, but (as always) everyone in the culture knows what one looks like.

I'm guessing that we can add "sica" to this group of general blade terms. This contrasts with terms like "gladius," which seems to be a strongly defined, two-edged military short sword used by the infantry.

"Sicarius" makes sense as a category, too. After all, in English we have gunmen, hatchetmen, hired knives, etc. The term "Sicarius" seems to belong to the same category. Terms like hatchetman are a bit different from, say, swordsman or gladiator, after all.

My 0.02 denarii,

Fearn

15th April 2006, 10:44 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Ariel, Outstanding, well thought out and beautifully worded ! I completely agree, and the material on the 'robber' activities and the Rabbi is extremely interesting information as well. Concise, comprehensive and pretty much conclusive post that addresses my original question categorically. Now to find more on those contemporary Roman weapons in use. Nicely done , thank you All the best, Jim

15th April 2006, 11:43 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	please ignore this one

15th April 2006, 11:48 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	After all, the Sica was quite a famous weapon . Brought around by Thracians and Dacians, adopted by Romans and Zealots, everybody had a go at it. Forcingly there were several variations, but with the basic shape of a reaping device, so it seems. Here can be seen a Tracian Sica Supina, made in wood, for trainning purposes, found within the barracks of a Roman legion, in Oberaden. http://www.arsdimicandi.net/ad_1_0000b0.htm. Rudis is the name given by Romans for sword wood replicas, which can be either trainning pieces for the army exercises and gladiator rookies, as well as presentation swords to victorious gladiators, signifying they could retire from such tough business. Dacian Sicas can be seen in Trajan's Column.http://cheiron.mcmaster.ca/~trajan/b...anpage.cgi?349 However i am personally convinced that the non combat Sica version, that one of Sicarius, be them Roman Sicarius, Zealot Sicarius, or the unamed Scum of the period, would be a shorter handy piece. Whether these concealed daggers were double or single edged, or simply free style, is something to be found out, as the chronicles do not coincide on this point.

16th April 2006, 04:44 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	More great info and threads Fernando, thank you!! I think you are right, a smaller handy form would be more in line with the stealth needed in carrying out the activities of sicarri. As Jens mentioned earlier, such a smaller and curved form would be ideal for such purpose, but not likely in more conventional combat or defense. It seems like references to sica/sickle and such blades with inside cutting edge may well have been for throat slashing, as Jens suggests, but also very effective at the upward sweep in abdominal attack, as noted by Rick. One thought that comes with Fernando's note on the Dacian form of sica, it seems that I had read somewhere that the Dacians had sickle type edged weapons, and one drawing I had seen captioned it a Dacian 'razor' knife. Best regards, Jim

16th April 2006, 05:04 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	In American prison parlance it would be called a Shiv.

16th April 2006, 04:17 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Ahah Ariel!!! Good one! Its been a while since I heard that term......not from personal experience mind you !!!! Now my curiosity goes again....where does the 'shiv' term come from? Best regards, Jim

18th April 2006, 11:58 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	there you are http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiv_%28weapon%29

19th April 2006, 05:19 AM	#8
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	This is a great discussion. One point I'm not convinced on, though, is that a sica was a strongly defined type of blade. We could be dealing something similar to the English "knife" or the Chinese/Burmese/etc. "dao," where the term is loosely defined, but (as always) everyone in the culture knows what one looks like. I'm guessing that we can add "sica" to this group of general blade terms. This contrasts with terms like "gladius," which seems to be a strongly defined, two-edged military short sword used by the infantry. "Sicarius" makes sense as a category, too. After all, in English we have gunmen, hatchetmen, hired knives, etc. The term "Sicarius" seems to belong to the same category. Terms like hatchetman are a bit different from, say, swordsman or gladiator, after all. My 0.02 denarii, Fearn