Afghan Pistol

Kubur · 20th January 2019, 09:12 AM

Hi,
I vote for the English/Irish connections...
Direct trade and copies from English productions are very well known for the khyber pass. Plus Liege as far I know produced guns for the Meditterranean and African markets, as it was said armes de traite or levantines.

Rick, is your barrel the same thickness?
One photo at the muzzle seems to indicate that the barrel might be local...
Kubur

fernando · 20th January 2019, 12:04 PM

Stu, Liege proof marks with the configuration/s in we usually discuss them, were only implemented with the Napoleonic occupation. The best of Liege (i.e. XVIII century) was not under such compliance ... am i right ?

Udo, is it my (and others) eyes or the Dublin Castle and the King's Crest in the discussed pistol are way to far from the genuine stamps

.

corrado26 · 20th January 2019, 02:02 PM

There are clear differences between the crowns and DUBLIN CASTLE signatures on the original pistol of the BROOKER collection and the pistol in question. See the fotos and decide for yourself. Very remarkable is the missing of the Broad Arrow on the llock of the "remake".
corrado26

fernando · 20th January 2019, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

There are clear differences between the crowns and DUBLIN CASTLE signatures on the original pistol of the BROOKER collection and the pistol in question...

Bur, that is precisely what i was suggesting; maybe i didn't make it clear ...

corrado26 · 20th January 2019, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi,

One photo at the muzzle seems to indicate that the barrel might be local...

Why should this barrel be local? As far as I can see there are the British proofmarks on it!
corrado26

Jim McDougall · 20th January 2019, 04:34 PM

This has been a great insight into this pistol, thank you guys for your patient explanations. I agree on the Liege notes, the ELG proof marks do not seem implemented on pre Napoleonic period weapons as Fernando has suggested, and I would ask as well if that is correct.

While the horrible execution of the crowned GR and DUBLIN CASTLE very much make me think of Khyber as suggested by Stu the more I think of it....that front piece (holding ramrod and absent on British models) is very French/Belgian, and as Corrado notes points to the Liege theory.

Also, Corrado, I cannot find more on the placing of assembler (?) name behind lock as the 'HERBERT' in this example. If this was an Afghan copy, it does not seem they would include such an obscured detail . ,,,by the same token, in Liege it does not seem they would use that either. However if this was the same of the maker in Liege as suggested it would make sense.

As I have noted, this is far outside my field, but it is great to learn more through this discussion. Also, I have few references on British guns, but Mr. Brooker's reference is outstanding with wonderful details and most helpful, so Corrado, please extend my thanks and compliments to him!! Its so much easier to read than others I have looked through.

corrado26 · 20th January 2019, 04:55 PM

I'd really extend your thanks and compliments to Bob Brooker, but as far as I know he is rather ill and do not know wether my email will reach him or not. I have to thank him too very much because I got from him the fotos of a very big part of his collection of pistols of many countries. This is an inestimable treasure and advantage which helps a lot in identifying unknown military pistols.
corrado26

fernando · 20th January 2019, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I agree on the Liege notes, the ELG proof marks do not seem implemented on pre Napoleonic period weapons as Fernando has suggested, and I would ask as well if that is correct. ..

I just didn't want to previously enter in such an categorical tone; but here you go:
Liege (much before Belgium) had armor builders since the XIII-XIV century. Circa 1700 was one of the more important world centers in relation with firearms. Political turbulence in the end of the XVIII century and beginning of the XIX, disorganized the profession of gunsmith, corporate regime was suppressed, markets were closed due a state of war, followed by the establishment of a State monopoly on military materials, determining an important crisis in the industry and trade of arms. That is when Monsieur Bonaparte broke in, reestablishing the Proof house, restoring its force of law; and that is as from when 'modern' Liege marks appeared.
Still i am only the piano player

.

kahnjar1 · 20th January 2019, 07:14 PM

Though not directly on the subject of Rick's pistol, here are the Liege Proof Marks discussed above, and details/dates when used.
As an aside, I personally do not believe that the word HERBERT inside the lock mortice has anything to do with Liege, or is in fact a "makers" name, so it remains a mystery.
Stu

Jim McDougall · 20th January 2019, 08:42 PM

Thanks very much Stu, I couldn't find any useful list of these marks as my gun resources are limited. Very much appreciated.
Perhaps you are right on the HERBERT name inside, it probably has nothing to do with Liege......I think we are all agreed this is far too crudely marked for any possible Irish (British) production...….and for that matter, Liege work is far crisper etc.

The lettering on this is so clumsy, and as Corrado has noted, the broad arrow is absent. With the British proof marks, Afghans often used old components so it could be authentic old barrel.

It really is hard to determine composite weapons as not only were they refurbished during working lives, ersatz weapons in time of trouble but even more confounding is that innovative modern dealers and commercial interests do the same thing with parts.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st January 2019, 07:24 AM

The pistol is from Afghanistan. it is a copy >>>This is WHAT THEY TERM AN APPRENTICE PIECE DONE FOR THE TOURIST MARKET WHICH OTHER THAN SOME MILITARY PERSONNEL IS NON EXISTANT... IN KABUL SOUK YOU CAN SEE HUNDREDS OF THESE AND SIMILAR>>>FOR SOME REASON THEY ALWAYS MESS UP THE SPELLING AND BALANCE OF THE WORDS.

fernando · 21st January 2019, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Though not directly on the subject of Rick's pistol, here are the Liege Proof Marks discussed above, and details/dates when used...

As we may see Stu, the only existing mark before Napoleon was the Tower symbol, which he abolished, only being restored in 1853; notwithstanding that, as i have once read, the guns trade in such earlier period not being strictly controlled, many smiths didn't care to send their pieces for approval;whether because of proof testing costs or other reasons, i don't recall. But i certainly know that many a gun made in Liege in the XVIII century, had no marks at all, as per this fine example i once owned.

.

20th January 2019, 02:02 PM	#3
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,231	There are clear differences between the crowns and DUBLIN CASTLE signatures on the original pistol of the BROOKER collection and the pistol in question. See the fotos and decide for yourself. Very remarkable is the missing of the Broad Arrow on the llock of the "remake". corrado26 Attached Images

20th January 2019, 07:14 PM	#9
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,789	Liege Proof Marks Though not directly on the subject of Rick's pistol, here are the Liege Proof Marks discussed above, and details/dates when used. As an aside, I personally do not believe that the word HERBERT inside the lock mortice has anything to do with Liege, or is in fact a "makers" name, so it remains a mystery. Stu Attached Images Last edited by kahnjar1; 20th January 2019 at 08:25 PM.

20th January 2019, 09:12 AM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi, I vote for the English/Irish connections... Direct trade and copies from English productions are very well known for the khyber pass. Plus Liege as far I know produced guns for the Meditterranean and African markets, as it was said armes de traite or levantines. Rick, is your barrel the same thickness? One photo at the muzzle seems to indicate that the barrel might be local... Kubur

20th January 2019, 12:04 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Stu, Liege proof marks with the configuration/s in we usually discuss them, were only implemented with the Napoleonic occupation. The best of Liege (i.e. XVIII century) was not under such compliance ... am i right ? Udo, is it my (and others) eyes or the Dublin Castle and the King's Crest in the discussed pistol are way to far from the genuine stamps .

20th January 2019, 04:34 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	This has been a great insight into this pistol, thank you guys for your patient explanations. I agree on the Liege notes, the ELG proof marks do not seem implemented on pre Napoleonic period weapons as Fernando has suggested, and I would ask as well if that is correct. While the horrible execution of the crowned GR and DUBLIN CASTLE very much make me think of Khyber as suggested by Stu the more I think of it....that front piece (holding ramrod and absent on British models) is very French/Belgian, and as Corrado notes points to the Liege theory. Also, Corrado, I cannot find more on the placing of assembler (?) name behind lock as the 'HERBERT' in this example. If this was an Afghan copy, it does not seem they would include such an obscured detail . ,,,by the same token, in Liege it does not seem they would use that either. However if this was the same of the maker in Liege as suggested it would make sense. As I have noted, this is far outside my field, but it is great to learn more through this discussion. Also, I have few references on British guns, but Mr. Brooker's reference is outstanding with wonderful details and most helpful, so Corrado, please extend my thanks and compliments to him!! Its so much easier to read than others I have looked through.

20th January 2019, 04:55 PM	#7
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,231	I'd really extend your thanks and compliments to Bob Brooker, but as far as I know he is rather ill and do not know wether my email will reach him or not. I have to thank him too very much because I got from him the fotos of a very big part of his collection of pistols of many countries. This is an inestimable treasure and advantage which helps a lot in identifying unknown military pistols. corrado26

20th January 2019, 08:42 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thanks very much Stu, I couldn't find any useful list of these marks as my gun resources are limited. Very much appreciated. Perhaps you are right on the HERBERT name inside, it probably has nothing to do with Liege......I think we are all agreed this is far too crudely marked for any possible Irish (British) production...….and for that matter, Liege work is far crisper etc. The lettering on this is so clumsy, and as Corrado has noted, the broad arrow is absent. With the British proof marks, Afghans often used old components so it could be authentic old barrel. It really is hard to determine composite weapons as not only were they refurbished during working lives, ersatz weapons in time of trouble but even more confounding is that innovative modern dealers and commercial interests do the same thing with parts.

21st January 2019, 07:24 AM	#11
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	The pistol is from Afghanistan. it is a copy >>>This is WHAT THEY TERM AN APPRENTICE PIECE DONE FOR THE TOURIST MARKET WHICH OTHER THAN SOME MILITARY PERSONNEL IS NON EXISTANT... IN KABUL SOUK YOU CAN SEE HUNDREDS OF THESE AND SIMILAR>>>FOR SOME REASON THEY ALWAYS MESS UP THE SPELLING AND BALANCE OF THE WORDS.