Gaucho knife by Sheffield

Fernando K · 17th January 2019, 11:34 AM

Hello

Only to refer to the Wikipedia entry. It refers to the fact that the Creole knife is a product of the pampas or the Pampean zone. Argentina (like Brazil, Uruguay and all of South America) has varied regions, such as mountains, jungles and mountainous areas and deserts, and in all areas the knife was used to sacrifice animals, hunt, work leather and eat

Afectuosamente

alex8765 · 17th January 2019, 01:12 PM

I received the reply from Mr. Abel Domenech regarding this knife:

---------------------

As you may know, gaucho knives can´t be classified in a very strict basis because they were made locally adapting blades coming mostly from Europe and sheaths and handles were made by skilled silversmiths following the aesthetic taste of the epoch.

The present accepted classification of "facon" "daga" "puñal criollo", etc. etc. is a modern convention generally accepted by collectors but was never used in the past in same way as today because in those far years knives were named in a very confusing manner and they called cuchillo (knife) daga, facon, etc. following their fancy or custom without paying much attention to the shapes or characteristics of the piece itself.

In this case your knife follows approximately the shape of a "facon" but I wouldn´t classify as that as it seems to me it has a blade of around 23 centimeters only.
Real facones were fighting edged weapons which sported longer blades of around 35/40 centimeters up to 50 (and of course there existed with longer blades taken from swords which received the name of "caroneros" because they were carried between the leather "caronas" a part which composed their horse saddles)

Now... How I could call your knife? Well I could say it is a dagger or pointed knife which was carried by its owner as a sign of wealth and power and/or as a personal defence edged weapon. In Brazil this shape of blade was very popular and known as "faca de ponta" (knife with pointed blade).

Of course the handle and sheath follows the shape of gaucho knifes but please note: this is NOT a knife made or employed in territories of which today are Argentina or Uruguay and of course not in the Pampas.
Definitively this is a knife made and used in Brazil.

This knife follows the decorative taste of Brazilian knives and those in use in the southern region of their Country where a gaucho culture similar to that of Argentina and Uruguay existed and exists today, but with some distinctive differences.
Most probably the original owner of this interesting knife was a wealthy owner of a "Fazenda" (name given to ranch in Brazil. In Argentina we call them "estancia") and not belonged to a gaucho as gauchos usually were poor working men with little resources to buy this kind of knives.

I can also tell you that the initials "TPV" both in the reinforcement of joint of handle with blade and on the "hook" of sheath used to hold the knife against the belt or a cloth sash are those of the Silversmith who made it.
The female head on the sheath hook is typical of Brazilian knives and same can be said of shape and decoration of sheath. Most of these knives were made in the region of Sorocaba (south of Sao Paulo) or in the city of Sao Paulo itself.

The blade as it was usual with gaucho knives of South America came from an European blade (a larger knife or any other edged tool or weapon).

It is of English origin and it has been reshaped by grinding a blade from some knife or larger blade to the required shape.
The position of the "Cast Steel" stamp clearly shows that.

This inscription also gives us the clue that it was of British origin (most probably Sheffield) and gives us a hint of the age of the blade of around 1850/1870´s I feel.

Regretably to date a gaucho knife is a very difficult matter because blades of different vintage have been used since the XIX Century till the present.
Steel blades were a very coveted material in the early times and not readily available so they were recicled in different manners. Making knifes from blades of swords or other bigger edged weapons was one way.
So we can find a knife of say late XIX Century with a blade of the 1850´s for example. Or even a knife of early XX Century with blades of 30 or 50 years before.

If the knife has no inscriptions of names or presentation inscriptions is very very difficult to date any knife of this kind.

In this case studying the shape and my experience in observing other similar knives I can risk to date it in a very wide lapse of time only, may be around 1870´s to late 1890´s, and I appologize for not being able to state it more accurately.

You own a very interesting and beautiful piece which as it happens with all antique gaucho knives encloses a lot of questions which are not easy to answer and most probably will remain unanswered:
Who was the silversmith who made it? In which exact dates? Who was the person who requested it? How he employed it? If you found it in the USA or Europe, how it arrived there?...

In any case those who presently own, love and collect this type of knives have to learn to live and enjoy them with these mysteries around them. May be it is part of the charm of these antique knives and make for the attraction they have.

I wish these comments will be of your interest and will help to enhance the enjoyment of having this superb piece in your collection.
I also wish to thank to Mr. Chris Evans and other members of Ethnographic Arms and Armour Forum who mentioned my name for their very kind words to my person and work.

Best cordial regards,
Abel A. Domenech
Buenos Aires.
--------------------

Chris Evans · 18th January 2019, 11:42 AM

Hi Alex,

Thanks for sharing with us Mr Domenech's knowledgeable and lengthy reply. He is a true gentleman, a scholar, and an invaluable resource to students of South American edged weapons.

Fernando,

You make a very good point about not all knives being of Pampean origin. Domenech in his magisterial work, Dagas De Plata, devotes a section to the Puñal Salteño, a mountainous region of Argentina, which is in keeping with your observation. As well. large narrow and pointed bladed knives of probably African origin are peculiar to parts of Brazil, and some time ago we had this thread on the subject: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...brazilian+faca

Cheers
Chris

17th January 2019, 11:34 AM	#1
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 671	Hello Only to refer to the Wikipedia entry. It refers to the fact that the Creole knife is a product of the pampas or the Pampean zone. Argentina (like Brazil, Uruguay and all of South America) has varied regions, such as mountains, jungles and mountainous areas and deserts, and in all areas the knife was used to sacrifice animals, hunt, work leather and eat Afectuosamente

17th January 2019, 01:12 PM	#2
alex8765 Member Join Date: Nov 2018 Location: NYC Posts: 63	I received the reply from Mr. Abel Domenech regarding this knife: --------------------- As you may know, gaucho knives can´t be classified in a very strict basis because they were made locally adapting blades coming mostly from Europe and sheaths and handles were made by skilled silversmiths following the aesthetic taste of the epoch. The present accepted classification of "facon" "daga" "puñal criollo", etc. etc. is a modern convention generally accepted by collectors but was never used in the past in same way as today because in those far years knives were named in a very confusing manner and they called cuchillo (knife) daga, facon, etc. following their fancy or custom without paying much attention to the shapes or characteristics of the piece itself. In this case your knife follows approximately the shape of a "facon" but I wouldn´t classify as that as it seems to me it has a blade of around 23 centimeters only. Real facones were fighting edged weapons which sported longer blades of around 35/40 centimeters up to 50 (and of course there existed with longer blades taken from swords which received the name of "caroneros" because they were carried between the leather "caronas" a part which composed their horse saddles) Now... How I could call your knife? Well I could say it is a dagger or pointed knife which was carried by its owner as a sign of wealth and power and/or as a personal defence edged weapon. In Brazil this shape of blade was very popular and known as "faca de ponta" (knife with pointed blade). Of course the handle and sheath follows the shape of gaucho knifes but please note: this is NOT a knife made or employed in territories of which today are Argentina or Uruguay and of course not in the Pampas. Definitively this is a knife made and used in Brazil. This knife follows the decorative taste of Brazilian knives and those in use in the southern region of their Country where a gaucho culture similar to that of Argentina and Uruguay existed and exists today, but with some distinctive differences. Most probably the original owner of this interesting knife was a wealthy owner of a "Fazenda" (name given to ranch in Brazil. In Argentina we call them "estancia") and not belonged to a gaucho as gauchos usually were poor working men with little resources to buy this kind of knives. I can also tell you that the initials "TPV" both in the reinforcement of joint of handle with blade and on the "hook" of sheath used to hold the knife against the belt or a cloth sash are those of the Silversmith who made it. The female head on the sheath hook is typical of Brazilian knives and same can be said of shape and decoration of sheath. Most of these knives were made in the region of Sorocaba (south of Sao Paulo) or in the city of Sao Paulo itself. The blade as it was usual with gaucho knives of South America came from an European blade (a larger knife or any other edged tool or weapon). It is of English origin and it has been reshaped by grinding a blade from some knife or larger blade to the required shape. The position of the "Cast Steel" stamp clearly shows that. This inscription also gives us the clue that it was of British origin (most probably Sheffield) and gives us a hint of the age of the blade of around 1850/1870´s I feel. Regretably to date a gaucho knife is a very difficult matter because blades of different vintage have been used since the XIX Century till the present. Steel blades were a very coveted material in the early times and not readily available so they were recicled in different manners. Making knifes from blades of swords or other bigger edged weapons was one way. So we can find a knife of say late XIX Century with a blade of the 1850´s for example. Or even a knife of early XX Century with blades of 30 or 50 years before. If the knife has no inscriptions of names or presentation inscriptions is very very difficult to date any knife of this kind. In this case studying the shape and my experience in observing other similar knives I can risk to date it in a very wide lapse of time only, may be around 1870´s to late 1890´s, and I appologize for not being able to state it more accurately. You own a very interesting and beautiful piece which as it happens with all antique gaucho knives encloses a lot of questions which are not easy to answer and most probably will remain unanswered: Who was the silversmith who made it? In which exact dates? Who was the person who requested it? How he employed it? If you found it in the USA or Europe, how it arrived there?... In any case those who presently own, love and collect this type of knives have to learn to live and enjoy them with these mysteries around them. May be it is part of the charm of these antique knives and make for the attraction they have. I wish these comments will be of your interest and will help to enhance the enjoyment of having this superb piece in your collection. I also wish to thank to Mr. Chris Evans and other members of Ethnographic Arms and Armour Forum who mentioned my name for their very kind words to my person and work. Best cordial regards, Abel A. Domenech Buenos Aires. --------------------

18th January 2019, 11:42 AM	#3
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Alex, Thanks for sharing with us Mr Domenech's knowledgeable and lengthy reply. He is a true gentleman, a scholar, and an invaluable resource to students of South American edged weapons. Fernando, You make a very good point about not all knives being of Pampean origin. Domenech in his magisterial work, Dagas De Plata, devotes a section to the Puñal Salteño, a mountainous region of Argentina, which is in keeping with your observation. As well. large narrow and pointed bladed knives of probably African origin are peculiar to parts of Brazil, and some time ago we had this thread on the subject: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...brazilian+faca Cheers Chris