very long barrel percussion pistol

Kmaddock · 4th December 2018, 08:19 PM

Hi All
I have just purchased the following pistol
any idea on what it is i have purchased unseen as a Christmas project as it looks like the trigger and hammer spring are both gone or broken
probably spent too much but i have never seen a barrel as long on a pistol like this
i found an allen and wheelock 10 inch barrel similar boot pistol but this definitely is a longer barrel weapon
the German bayonet in the picture has approx a 10 inch blade so i reckon this gun is in or around a 20 inch barrel!
any ideas
Thanks
Ken

fernando · 4th December 2018, 09:56 PM

A concealed (clandestine) shooting gun ?

.

Kmaddock · 4th December 2018, 10:53 PM

A walking stick gun? Maybe!
I should have it within the week but I will not open the package till Christmas morning. I know a bit infantile but a bit of fun and our family tradition That dad is excited to open his presents as well as the little ones. Just got to get something for my wife now!
Regards
Ken

MacCathain · 5th December 2018, 01:02 AM

Ken, I'd say a cane gun as well, principally due to the barrel length and the characteristic grip, which serves either purpose. A nice find!

M

Rick · 5th December 2018, 03:55 AM

Well, if it's a cane gun it's about as subtle as a crutch.

fernando · 5th December 2018, 02:31 PM

Obviously not a cane sword. The suggestion was not a weapon to be concealed inside a cane but, naked as it is, concealed under the overcoat. You walk down to the (city) park, pull it off and shoot a piece of game !

Kmaddock · 5th December 2018, 06:36 PM

Hi All
Thanks for your interest
here is a few i came across on the web
looks sort of similar
basically looks like a long barrel pistol and you have some sort of screw off plug at the top of the barrel for when using as a walking stick (a not very discrete item at all)
cant imagine it would be v accurate more of a curiosity I suppose but that is why i purchased it so i cant be too critical!!
regards

ken

fernando · 5th December 2018, 07:16 PM

Those two are not the same thing ... right ?
The lower one would be a cane gun; but the upper one is like yours and i don't think is the same kind of implement.
I will stand corrected though

.

Fernando K · 5th December 2018, 08:06 PM

Hello

Only for a comment. It would be necessary to see if the barrel is original, or if it has been added later, to create a "curious" weapon (and be able to sell it like this)

Affectionately

Kmaddock · 5th December 2018, 08:24 PM

Hi Fernando
No not the same thing in second image, first though looks to be a reasonable match though.
The second picture of the two shows the plug at the bottom of the barrel so that the barrel does not presumably get plugged with mud when you are using the gun as a a cane.
Sort of same family
I am wondering will there be threads at the bottom of the barrel on mine to screw in a plug?
we will see on Christmas morning? I enjoy the guessing at the moment though
Thanks again for observations
Ken

DaleH · 6th December 2018, 01:40 AM

Wonder if there is a hole at the base of the stock. See attached. If not a cane gun, it could be an early (percussion) ‘bicycle’ pistol.

http://www.horstheld.com/0-Day.html

DaleH · 6th December 2018, 01:48 AM

Check to see if there is a hole at the back of the grip. If not a cane gun, it could be an early percussion ‘bicycle’ pistol.

See more here: http://www.oldbike.eu/museum/guns/ and here, for one w/ removable buttstock: http://www.horstheld.com/0-Day.html

.

kahnjar1 · 6th December 2018, 08:21 AM

Hi Ken,
When you receive it, check to see if there is a fixing point for a shoulder stock. I suspect that if there is one, it will be what is loosely called a Poachers Gun. Not likely to be a cane or walking stick gun as they are usually "full length" with a barrel bung of some sort.
Interesting piece by the way.............

Stu

fernando · 6th December 2018, 12:39 PM

I remember now the name given by the French to poachers: Braconnier; and the name of famous French novelist that became one.
Here THE ACCOUNT of his Braconnier adventures; and the advert. on one of the models i used to have.

.

Kmaddock · 1st January 2019, 05:31 PM

Well here is the gun and I have it all back in working order.

All that was wrong was the mainspring retaining screw which powered both the hammer and the trigger, was broken so I had to make and replace the screw as well as removing a lot of rust and crud build up

Took some effort to get into the mechanism but I got there in the end.
I had to drill out the hammer pin to get the hammer out as the screw head was mushed and this had to be then re manufactured but not much of a job really as I have a lathe.

I got the barrel unscrewed with a bit of persuasion using oxo acetylene torch and some cycles of hot and cold. Final quench was with diesel. which when you heat the treads up to around 200 Celsius and then syringe diesel onto the threads the diesel gets pulled into the treads and hence lubricate which greatly eases the two parts apart ( I checked thoroughly to ensure unloaded before this heating job)

So
19 inch barrel with tapered screw threads
No markings at all on gun except for 19 on the barrel, so this might be barrel length which would indicate non continental manufacture

The aging platina etc demonstrate to me that the parts were together for a v v long time

No proof mark I can make out and I do not think there was ever any makers marks

There is no mounting at all for a stock and in my opinion there never was one

Very unwieldy and impossible to aim accurately, small bead front sight
Approx 10 mm caliber

Nice smooth mechanism which cocks, locks and fires perfect

Any more opinions welcome
I am putting it down as a 1840. - 1860 takedown pistol for opertunistic poaching or hunting but with no stock it would probably have to be loaded with shot to have any chance of hitting game

Comments welcome

Happy 2019 to all

Ken

corrado26 · 2nd January 2019, 09:44 AM

In my foto archive I found nearly the same pistol with an attachable shoulder stock made as says the mark on the barrel at St. Eteinne in France.
corrado26

Mel H · 2nd January 2019, 04:33 PM

Having had a long time interest in antique arms and armour I have to say that I've only seen in passing, a couple of these 'turn off' box locks with barrels of such length, having said that, the pistol itself, is very similar to what is probably the most common product of the Belgian gun makers of the early/mid 19th C.
Seeing the photographs I realise that it is not merely a standard pistol body fitted with the extra length barrel, as I had assumed.
With those, the breech where the powder and ball is contained (they were loaded after removing the barrel) is less than an inch long and the powder capacity was limited to quite a small volume with the ball in a spherical seat on top. The first thing that I notice with this one is that the length of the breech is much greater, probably intended for a quantity of shot on top of the powder, rather than a ball.
Is the inside diameter of the breech parallel all of the way to the nipple or stepped down to a smaller powder chamber?

Kmaddock · 3rd January 2019, 10:24 AM

Hi Mel and Corrado26
Thanks for interest and Corrado26 you have found a v close match few differences but overall construction V similar.
Mel
The barrel narrows about an half an inch from the nipple to a v small diameter of maybe 4 mm or so but i am unsure if there is a chamber behind the constriction or not
there otherwise a uniform diameter for the remainder of the barrel

Thinking about the weapon it is v concealable and might have been designed to be used with or without the barrel attachment. ie a short or long ranged weapon
the absence of shoulder stock attachment though is awkward. but resting on a wall or fence would negate this difficultly

regards

Ken

Mel H · 4th January 2019, 03:01 PM

My first thoughts were that it was feasible that it was intended for dual use, that's what prompted my query about the diameter of the breech and its capacity to hold a shot or ball as well as the powder.

4th December 2018, 08:19 PM	#1
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	very long barrel percussion pistol Hi All I have just purchased the following pistol any idea on what it is i have purchased unseen as a Christmas project as it looks like the trigger and hammer spring are both gone or broken probably spent too much but i have never seen a barrel as long on a pistol like this i found an allen and wheelock 10 inch barrel similar boot pistol but this definitely is a longer barrel weapon the German bayonet in the picture has approx a 10 inch blade so i reckon this gun is in or around a 20 inch barrel! any ideas Thanks Ken Attached Images

5th December 2018, 06:36 PM	#7
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi All Thanks for your interest here is a few i came across on the web looks sort of similar basically looks like a long barrel pistol and you have some sort of screw off plug at the top of the barrel for when using as a walking stick (a not very discrete item at all) cant imagine it would be v accurate more of a curiosity I suppose but that is why i purchased it so i cant be too critical!! regards ken Attached Images

6th December 2018, 01:48 AM	#12
DaleH Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Location: near Boston - USA Posts: 11	Check to see if there is a hole at the back of the grip. If not a cane gun, it could be an early percussion ‘bicycle’ pistol. See more here: http://www.oldbike.eu/museum/guns/ and here, for one w/ removable buttstock: http://www.horstheld.com/0-Day.html . Last edited by fernando; 6th December 2018 at 09:38 AM. Reason: No links to active sales sites allowed

6th December 2018, 12:39 PM	#14
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I remember now the name given by the French to poachers: Braconnier; and the name of famous French novelist that became one. Here THE ACCOUNT of his Braconnier adventures; and the advert. on one of the models i used to have. . Attached Images

1st January 2019, 05:31 PM	#15
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Well here is the gun and I have it all back in working order. All that was wrong was the mainspring retaining screw which powered both the hammer and the trigger, was broken so I had to make and replace the screw as well as removing a lot of rust and crud build up Took some effort to get into the mechanism but I got there in the end. I had to drill out the hammer pin to get the hammer out as the screw head was mushed and this had to be then re manufactured but not much of a job really as I have a lathe. I got the barrel unscrewed with a bit of persuasion using oxo acetylene torch and some cycles of hot and cold. Final quench was with diesel. which when you heat the treads up to around 200 Celsius and then syringe diesel onto the threads the diesel gets pulled into the treads and hence lubricate which greatly eases the two parts apart ( I checked thoroughly to ensure unloaded before this heating job) So 19 inch barrel with tapered screw threads No markings at all on gun except for 19 on the barrel, so this might be barrel length which would indicate non continental manufacture The aging platina etc demonstrate to me that the parts were together for a v v long time No proof mark I can make out and I do not think there was ever any makers marks There is no mounting at all for a stock and in my opinion there never was one Very unwieldy and impossible to aim accurately, small bead front sight Approx 10 mm caliber Nice smooth mechanism which cocks, locks and fires perfect Any more opinions welcome I am putting it down as a 1840. - 1860 takedown pistol for opertunistic poaching or hunting but with no stock it would probably have to be loaded with shot to have any chance of hitting game Comments welcome Happy 2019 to all Ken Attached Images

4th December 2018, 09:56 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A concealed (clandestine) shooting gun ? .

4th December 2018, 10:53 PM	#3
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	A walking stick gun? Maybe! I should have it within the week but I will not open the package till Christmas morning. I know a bit infantile but a bit of fun and our family tradition That dad is excited to open his presents as well as the little ones. Just got to get something for my wife now! Regards Ken

5th December 2018, 01:02 AM	#4
MacCathain Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 67	Ken, I'd say a cane gun as well, principally due to the barrel length and the characteristic grip, which serves either purpose. A nice find! M

5th December 2018, 03:55 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,300	Well, if it's a cane gun it's about as subtle as a crutch.

5th December 2018, 02:31 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Obviously not a cane sword. The suggestion was not a weapon to be concealed inside a cane but, naked as it is, concealed under the overcoat. You walk down to the (city) park, pull it off and shoot a piece of game !

5th December 2018, 07:16 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Those two are not the same thing ... right ? The lower one would be a cane gun; but the upper one is like yours and i don't think is the same kind of implement. I will stand corrected though .

5th December 2018, 08:06 PM	#9
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 669	Hello Only for a comment. It would be necessary to see if the barrel is original, or if it has been added later, to create a "curious" weapon (and be able to sell it like this) Affectionately

5th December 2018, 08:24 PM	#10
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi Fernando No not the same thing in second image, first though looks to be a reasonable match though. The second picture of the two shows the plug at the bottom of the barrel so that the barrel does not presumably get plugged with mud when you are using the gun as a a cane. Sort of same family I am wondering will there be threads at the bottom of the barrel on mine to screw in a plug? we will see on Christmas morning? I enjoy the guessing at the moment though Thanks again for observations Ken

6th December 2018, 01:40 AM	#11
DaleH Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Location: near Boston - USA Posts: 11	Wonder if there is a hole at the base of the stock. See attached. If not a cane gun, it could be an early (percussion) ‘bicycle’ pistol. http://www.horstheld.com/0-Day.html

6th December 2018, 08:21 AM	#13
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,742	Hi Ken, When you receive it, check to see if there is a fixing point for a shoulder stock. I suspect that if there is one, it will be what is loosely called a Poachers Gun. Not likely to be a cane or walking stick gun as they are usually "full length" with a barrel bung of some sort. Interesting piece by the way............. Stu

2nd January 2019, 09:44 AM	#16
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	In my foto archive I found nearly the same pistol with an attachable shoulder stock made as says the mark on the barrel at St. Eteinne in France. corrado26 Attached Images

2nd January 2019, 04:33 PM	#17
Mel H Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: North East England. Posts: 107	Having had a long time interest in antique arms and armour I have to say that I've only seen in passing, a couple of these 'turn off' box locks with barrels of such length, having said that, the pistol itself, is very similar to what is probably the most common product of the Belgian gun makers of the early/mid 19th C. Seeing the photographs I realise that it is not merely a standard pistol body fitted with the extra length barrel, as I had assumed. With those, the breech where the powder and ball is contained (they were loaded after removing the barrel) is less than an inch long and the powder capacity was limited to quite a small volume with the ball in a spherical seat on top. The first thing that I notice with this one is that the length of the breech is much greater, probably intended for a quantity of shot on top of the powder, rather than a ball. Is the inside diameter of the breech parallel all of the way to the nipple or stepped down to a smaller powder chamber?

3rd January 2019, 10:24 AM	#18
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi Mel and Corrado26 Thanks for interest and Corrado26 you have found a v close match few differences but overall construction V similar. Mel The barrel narrows about an half an inch from the nipple to a v small diameter of maybe 4 mm or so but i am unsure if there is a chamber behind the constriction or not there otherwise a uniform diameter for the remainder of the barrel Thinking about the weapon it is v concealable and might have been designed to be used with or without the barrel attachment. ie a short or long ranged weapon the absence of shoulder stock attachment though is awkward. but resting on a wall or fence would negate this difficultly regards Ken

4th January 2019, 03:01 PM	#19
Mel H Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: North East England. Posts: 107	My first thoughts were that it was feasible that it was intended for dual use, that's what prompted my query about the diameter of the breech and its capacity to hold a shot or ball as well as the powder.