My Christmas sword, Mameluk of the Imperial Guard

fernando · 1st January 2019, 09:15 PM

Fabrice, as i said in the first post of my thread, the sabre 'appeared to be' what i described; i knew nothing about these swords. Indeed the only wrong detail was that of the 1st Empire period. However i took notice that such was soon corrected to a (circa) 1830 dating, by corrado26 in post #2 and also by some direct qualified information, confirming its authenticity and production period; reason why i didn't digest the reproduction attribution.
The painting by Gérôme was just an 'en passant'; what does really impress me is the portrait of Ismaël, done in 1805; we can clearly see a suspension ring down by the middle of the scabbard.
By the way Fabrice, how wide is the range of "arrangements" or "customizations" in point 1. of your classification; does it include atypical European blades?
In other words, you have solid information on the 1806-1809 productions but, what evidence do you have that yours is a pre-1806 example ?
Just asking ... don't take it wrong

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corrado26 · 2nd January 2019, 07:44 AM

I have doubts if the blade of the sabre shown with the motto "Pro deo et Patria" is a French one.
During the revolution of 1789 until 1804 all symbols of christianity have been destroyed and over that and to emphasize this a new revolutionary calender has been introduced. So a sword made during this time by Boutet in Versailles in France cannot have a motto like the one on this blade. It is absolutely unthinkable. In my opinion the "Pro Deo et Patria" is a typically German or Austrian one, so the blade of this mamelucke sword might have been made at Solingen!
A further reason why I doubt that this blade was the blade of an original mameluck sword: Why should a moslem, and mamelucks have been moslems throughout, should have used a blade with such a motto. In case the blade has been a lute of war then the sword isn't an original!!
corrado26

corrado26 · 6th January 2019, 03:02 PM

No answers of the owner? Makes me pensif because I was looking forward to an interesting discussion. Obviously I was wrong!
corrado26

kai · 7th January 2019, 07:29 PM

Hello Udo,

Deus translates as Allah in an Islamic context; I don't think the word per se would necessarily raise an eyebrow during that period if the blade was deemed desirable by the owner...

Regards,
Kai

Victrix · 7th January 2019, 09:13 PM

I think it’s time to re-read post #1 of the thread again, and re-open that bottle of Armagnac!

It’s a beautiful sword which I would not mind having in my collection.

fernando · 8th January 2019, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

...Deus translates as Allah in an Islamic context; I don't think the word per se would necessarily raise an eyebrow during that period if the blade was deemed desirable by the owner...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

I think it’s time to re-read post #1 of the thread again, and re-open that bottle of Armagnac!
It’s a beautiful sword which I would not mind having in my collection...

Let it be no doubt;Fabrice's sabre is obviously an excellent sword ... with or without Armagnac

; and definitely i wouldn't mind to swap it for my example . Perhaps the issue was to whether its blade is consistent with the hilt where it is mounted on, in the context of such proposed timeline.
We learn that Napoleon brought back in his and his officers luggage from the Egypt campaign (August 1799) a bunch of Mameluke sabres as also some unmounted blades (not hilts), all as expectedly of Islamic nature, those often called Sabres du Retour d'Egypte (Les Sabres portés par l'armée Francaise by Lhoste/Resek). Those were strong curved blades, with a variable pronounced fleche (bow) often with over 10 cms. and Coranic decorations.
Following the steps of such culture, why would a Mameluke trooper (or officer) preferred a blade captured in Austerlitz to that of his reputedly excellent original one; possibly because such one was damaged ? or to honor himself for the new blade capture ... a remote possibility, i am afraid.
Alright, he wouldn't necessarily know that the "Pro Deo et Patria" theme was not such an unique catch, as we may see out there, including in THIS very forum.
But curiously this said inscription may be seen also in more than one existing blades mounted on Mameluke style sabres, as if this was a current procedure.
Food for thought

.

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1st January 2019, 09:15 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Fabrice, as i said in the first post of my thread, the sabre 'appeared to be' what i described; i knew nothing about these swords. Indeed the only wrong detail was that of the 1st Empire period. However i took notice that such was soon corrected to a (circa) 1830 dating, by corrado26 in post #2 and also by some direct qualified information, confirming its authenticity and production period; reason why i didn't digest the reproduction attribution. The painting by Gérôme was just an 'en passant'; what does really impress me is the portrait of Ismaël, done in 1805; we can clearly see a suspension ring down by the middle of the scabbard. By the way Fabrice, how wide is the range of "arrangements" or "customizations" in point 1. of your classification; does it include atypical European blades? In other words, you have solid information on the 1806-1809 productions but, what evidence do you have that yours is a pre-1806 example ? Just asking ... don't take it wrong .

2nd January 2019, 07:44 AM	#2
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,231	I have doubts if the blade of the sabre shown with the motto "Pro deo et Patria" is a French one. During the revolution of 1789 until 1804 all symbols of christianity have been destroyed and over that and to emphasize this a new revolutionary calender has been introduced. So a sword made during this time by Boutet in Versailles in France cannot have a motto like the one on this blade. It is absolutely unthinkable. In my opinion the "Pro Deo et Patria" is a typically German or Austrian one, so the blade of this mamelucke sword might have been made at Solingen! A further reason why I doubt that this blade was the blade of an original mameluck sword: Why should a moslem, and mamelucks have been moslems throughout, should have used a blade with such a motto. In case the blade has been a lute of war then the sword isn't an original!! corrado26 Last edited by corrado26; 2nd January 2019 at 01:41 PM.

6th January 2019, 03:02 PM	#3
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,231	No answers of the owner? Makes me pensif because I was looking forward to an interesting discussion. Obviously I was wrong! corrado26

7th January 2019, 07:29 PM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Udo, Deus translates as Allah in an Islamic context; I don't think the word per se would necessarily raise an eyebrow during that period if the blade was deemed desirable by the owner... Regards, Kai

7th January 2019, 09:13 PM	#5
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	I think it’s time to re-read post #1 of the thread again, and re-open that bottle of Armagnac! It’s a beautiful sword which I would not mind having in my collection.