Ancient Zealot daggers

Rivkin · 12th April 2006, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In recent news items that concern newly revealed ancient writings said to be those from Judas, there have been interesting suggestions concerning this central figure in Biblical history. One of these suggest that Judas may have been involved in a group of Zealots said to be known as 'Siccarri', with the term referring to a form of dagger.

Without getting into theosophical discussion, and keeping things objective, I am interested in knowing what form of dagger this might have been. While these regions of Biblical history were occupied of course by the Romans in these times , and the term is Latin, could the dagger have been of local form? Does anyone have illustrations of the type daggers in use in Israel and Judea during these historic times?

Again, my question concerns strictly the typology of daggers of the times that may qualify as those known as 'siccarri', aside from political or religious data.

Best regards,
Jim

I guess the source for this is Josephicus Flavius, "Judean wars". I don't have this book anymore, but, by memory, he writes about sicari carrying sicas, what he describes to be a short sword, similar to that of greeks (I guess it is some variation of gladius). Since their specialty was mass scale assasinations, I guess it had to be rather small.

P.S. my fault. Attached is a gladiator with sica, which is sort of like bowie

.

drdavid · 12th April 2006, 05:53 AM

The latin dictionary translates Sica as dagger or dirk so Siccarri ?knifeman
As an interesting aside the latin Cica is the medical term for scar or an incision mark so the Sica leaves a cica....hmmm I seem to have too much time on my hands
DrD

ariel · 12th April 2006, 04:40 PM

Does this help?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2036

Jim McDougall · 13th April 2006, 03:25 AM

Thank you very much for the responses guys! Interesting perspective DrDavid with the term cica (=incision) and the term sica. I always very much admire linguistics and how much pertinant information can be derived from word and term associations, semantics and transliteration.

Rivkin, actually my interest in this topic began with the recent media articles and National Geographic documentary on the ancient document holding the text of the Gospel of Judas, which has recently surfaced after being virtually lost for nearly 1700 years. My reference to the Sicarii comes from an article from the Dallas Morning News (by Susan Hogan-Albach, section G, April 12,2003). In it the author discusses possibilities for the name/word (?) commonly associated with Judas, Iscariot. She asks if it is a surname, name of a town, or "...a corruption of the Latin word 'sicarius' referring to a dagger carried by terrorists known as the Sicarii".
While there are numerous interpretations of the political dealings and motivations of this group, it is stated, as noted, that they were known for assassinations, with these daggers presumably. Possibly the daggers were simply symbolic for the militant function of the group?
In any case, the illustration of the gladiator with a 'sica' gives a reasonable idea of the form, but as you suggest, possibly derivative of the larger swords.
It seems like clandestine activity such as assassinations would call for a more concealable weapon though.

Ariel, thank you for that thread, which is indeed helpful, I must have missed that one! It really is interesting to see the types of weapons used during these Biblical times, a period it seems not often dealt with in weaponry.

Thank you again guys!

All the best,
Jim

VANDOO · 13th April 2006, 04:49 AM

LOOSE ROBES AND TOGAS WOULD LEND THEMSELVES TO CARYING CONCEALED WEAPONS SO THE KNIVES COULD HAVE BEEN FAIRLY LARGE AND CARRIED IN SOME TYPE OF CONCELED HARNESS. BUT AN ASSASINS BLADE DOSEN'T NEED TO BE VERY LARGE AS SURPRIZE IS THE USUAL TECKNIQUE , AND BATTLE IS TO BE AVOIDED. IT KIND OF MAKES ONE WONDER WHAT SORT OF WEAPONS PAUL (SAUL) USED BEFORE HE BECAME A CHRISTIAN.

fernando · 13th April 2006, 02:23 PM

Hi Jim
May i save you some search time.
http://home.ix.netcom.com/~kiyoweap/...p/akinakes.htm
There seems to be no native name for the Zealots sica, as instead they picked the then current term, or maybe even the model, from the the Romans, to call themselves, or by the rest of their people, as Sicarii, which would be Aramaic ... actually a term still in use in portuguese; Sicários ... this with a conotation later applied by Romans, to make it become a perjorative term. It aparently was them who nick named Judas as Iscariotes ( Sicarius ) to distinguished from other timely known Judas.
Kind regards
fernando

ariel · 13th April 2006, 03:22 PM

Traditionally (and, probably, correctly) Iscariot was interpreted as corrupted rendition of Kirya (pl. Krayot): something like "settlement(s)" in Hebrew. In Israel there are quite a lot of Krayot: Kiryat Menahem, Kiryat Motzkin etc, etc. So, Judas was "...of the settlements". He likely lived in the vicinity of Jerusalem, in one of the outlying suburbs.

Battara · 14th April 2006, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Does this help?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2036

Boy did I miss this thread.

I did see the piece in the magazine - and with the shape and materials used, I would posit that this is a ceremonial agricultural tool, possible for use in the first cutting of the harvest (a custom of the day). This would not be used by the Sicarii who did assinassinations of Romans and Roman collaborators.

Jim McDougall · 14th April 2006, 11:51 PM

Just reading more of the great responses, and much appreciate hearing from everybody on this. This field of study has always seemed to escape my attention, possibly because of all the controversy, as noted by Rivkin. I'm glad to finally delve into it, and am especially impressed by the extremely esoteric knowledge constantly shared by all of you in your posts.

I think it is extremely interesting to see etymology, semantics and colloquial terms play a key role in historical investigation here and how socially applied terms evolved into perjoratives ( recalls similar instance in India where the practice of 'thuggee' evolved into the perjorative 'thug' for hoodlums etc.)
I honestly had not thought of the Roman term 'sica' and its apparant root for sickle either (really rusty in Latin

I had read of the possible derivation of Judas' name (?) Iscariot to one of the locations as Ariel mentioned, but it seems that the most compelling association holds to the more socially applied connotation to 'sicarri', and the Zealot groups as noted by Fernando and Fearn.
I agree that stealth attacks would require very concealable daggers and that the term 'sicarri' may well apply generally to daggers of varying sizes, up to those used in combat.

Thank you again guys for adding all the data on this, excellent discussion as well!

!!!

All the best,
Jim

Fernando, thanks very much for the excellent thread link to the akinakes, has some great info....good to hear from you!!!

ariel · 15th April 2006, 04:15 AM

Regarding Roman gladiatorial weapons: one of the most famous talmudic personalities, Rabbi Resh Lakish, used (before his turn to religious life) to be a rather famous "robber". Since other famous Rabbis never despised him and one even gave him his sister for a wife, the assumption is that he was an anti-Roman guerilla rather than a highway bandit. Nevertheless, even after becoming a Rabbi, the old ways beckoned hard, and he, from time to time, hired himself out as a gladiator. Strange and complex people one can find there...
This being the case, it is likely that anti-Roman Sicarii used traditional Roman weapons. At that time, Judea was under foreign control for at least 300-400 years (Greek-Syrian and then Roman), and the weapons in use were cosmopolitan.

Jim McDougall · 15th April 2006, 10:44 AM

Ariel,
Outstanding, well thought out and beautifully worded ! I completely agree, and the material on the 'robber' activities and the Rabbi is extremely interesting information as well. Concise, comprehensive and pretty much conclusive post that addresses my original question categorically. Now to find more on those contemporary Roman weapons in use.
Nicely done , thank you

All the best,
Jim

15th April 2006, 04:15 AM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Regarding Roman gladiatorial weapons: one of the most famous talmudic personalities, Rabbi Resh Lakish, used (before his turn to religious life) to be a rather famous "robber". Since other famous Rabbis never despised him and one even gave him his sister for a wife, the assumption is that he was an anti-Roman guerilla rather than a highway bandit. Nevertheless, even after becoming a Rabbi, the old ways beckoned hard, and he, from time to time, hired himself out as a gladiator. Strange and complex people one can find there... This being the case, it is likely that anti-Roman Sicarii used traditional Roman weapons. At that time, Judea was under foreign control for at least 300-400 years (Greek-Syrian and then Roman), and the weapons in use were cosmopolitan. Last edited by ariel; 15th April 2006 at 11:26 AM.

12th April 2006, 05:53 AM	#2
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	The latin dictionary translates Sica as dagger or dirk so Siccarri ?knifeman As an interesting aside the latin Cica is the medical term for scar or an incision mark so the Sica leaves a cica....hmmm I seem to have too much time on my hands DrD

12th April 2006, 04:40 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Does this help? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2036

13th April 2006, 03:25 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,286	Thank you very much for the responses guys! Interesting perspective DrDavid with the term cica (=incision) and the term sica. I always very much admire linguistics and how much pertinant information can be derived from word and term associations, semantics and transliteration. Rivkin, actually my interest in this topic began with the recent media articles and National Geographic documentary on the ancient document holding the text of the Gospel of Judas, which has recently surfaced after being virtually lost for nearly 1700 years. My reference to the Sicarii comes from an article from the Dallas Morning News (by Susan Hogan-Albach, section G, April 12,2003). In it the author discusses possibilities for the name/word (?) commonly associated with Judas, Iscariot. She asks if it is a surname, name of a town, or "...a corruption of the Latin word 'sicarius' referring to a dagger carried by terrorists known as the Sicarii". While there are numerous interpretations of the political dealings and motivations of this group, it is stated, as noted, that they were known for assassinations, with these daggers presumably. Possibly the daggers were simply symbolic for the militant function of the group? In any case, the illustration of the gladiator with a 'sica' gives a reasonable idea of the form, but as you suggest, possibly derivative of the larger swords. It seems like clandestine activity such as assassinations would call for a more concealable weapon though. Ariel, thank you for that thread, which is indeed helpful, I must have missed that one! It really is interesting to see the types of weapons used during these Biblical times, a period it seems not often dealt with in weaponry. Thank you again guys! All the best, Jim

13th April 2006, 04:49 AM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	LOOSE ROBES AND TOGAS WOULD LEND THEMSELVES TO CARYING CONCEALED WEAPONS SO THE KNIVES COULD HAVE BEEN FAIRLY LARGE AND CARRIED IN SOME TYPE OF CONCELED HARNESS. BUT AN ASSASINS BLADE DOSEN'T NEED TO BE VERY LARGE AS SURPRIZE IS THE USUAL TECKNIQUE , AND BATTLE IS TO BE AVOIDED. IT KIND OF MAKES ONE WONDER WHAT SORT OF WEAPONS PAUL (SAUL) USED BEFORE HE BECAME A CHRISTIAN.

13th April 2006, 02:23 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Jim May i save you some search time. http://home.ix.netcom.com/~kiyoweap/...p/akinakes.htm There seems to be no native name for the Zealots sica, as instead they picked the then current term, or maybe even the model, from the the Romans, to call themselves, or by the rest of their people, as Sicarii, which would be Aramaic ... actually a term still in use in portuguese; Sicários ... this with a conotation later applied by Romans, to make it become a perjorative term. It aparently was them who nick named Judas as Iscariotes ( Sicarius ) to distinguished from other timely known Judas. Kind regards fernando

13th April 2006, 03:22 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Traditionally (and, probably, correctly) Iscariot was interpreted as corrupted rendition of Kirya (pl. Krayot): something like "settlement(s)" in Hebrew. In Israel there are quite a lot of Krayot: Kiryat Menahem, Kiryat Motzkin etc, etc. So, Judas was "...of the settlements". He likely lived in the vicinity of Jerusalem, in one of the outlying suburbs.

14th April 2006, 11:51 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,286	Just reading more of the great responses, and much appreciate hearing from everybody on this. This field of study has always seemed to escape my attention, possibly because of all the controversy, as noted by Rivkin. I'm glad to finally delve into it, and am especially impressed by the extremely esoteric knowledge constantly shared by all of you in your posts. I think it is extremely interesting to see etymology, semantics and colloquial terms play a key role in historical investigation here and how socially applied terms evolved into perjoratives ( recalls similar instance in India where the practice of 'thuggee' evolved into the perjorative 'thug' for hoodlums etc.) I honestly had not thought of the Roman term 'sica' and its apparant root for sickle either (really rusty in Latin I had read of the possible derivation of Judas' name (?) Iscariot to one of the locations as Ariel mentioned, but it seems that the most compelling association holds to the more socially applied connotation to 'sicarri', and the Zealot groups as noted by Fernando and Fearn. I agree that stealth attacks would require very concealable daggers and that the term 'sicarri' may well apply generally to daggers of varying sizes, up to those used in combat. Thank you again guys for adding all the data on this, excellent discussion as well! !!! All the best, Jim Fernando, thanks very much for the excellent thread link to the akinakes, has some great info....good to hear from you!!!

15th April 2006, 10:44 AM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,286	Ariel, Outstanding, well thought out and beautifully worded ! I completely agree, and the material on the 'robber' activities and the Rabbi is extremely interesting information as well. Concise, comprehensive and pretty much conclusive post that addresses my original question categorically. Now to find more on those contemporary Roman weapons in use. Nicely done , thank you All the best, Jim