Elephant swords

[Jim McDougall]

I agree with Ian and Jens, the topic has freewheeled far from the original topic, which has often seemed troubling in many instances where aspects that indirectly applied to the topic at hand became the focus.

With the evidence for tusk swords apparently exhausted , I suppose it was inevitable that the scope expanded, but perhaps changing the title to 'use of elephants in warfare' would better serve the thread as it has evolved. The point is, just how much latitude should be extended in a discussion with ancillary factors brought in?

While the analogies of other instances of elephant weaponry were brought up it was primarily to test the feasability and credence of whether tusk swords were actually in abundant use, or fantasies appearing in art work.

As Jens has mentioned regarding the case for elephants holding swords in trunks, this seems very much an instance of either exaggeration or misconstrued account, much as most certainly the 'discussion' on erratic weights. If someone simply exclaimed.....the elephants HAD swords!!!!
Then how much would it take to PRESUME the elephant was holding a sword in its means of grasping. The exaggeration of weight of swords (either on tusks or held in the truck) would possibly be heavy in accord with the size and weight of these huge animals.

The question remains.......just how much EVIDENCE is there to support swords being used BY elephants? The profoundly digressed discussion has mostly revealed the questionability of the artwork and period accounts, but has not really provided much more on the tusk swords.

[fernando]

Jim i would be rather surprised if you didn't enter at this stage, as in moments that you usually find opportune.
I dare say that your attributing the posted topic colateral research findings a label of 'profound digression' is a bit 'over gauged', even judging by your own inferrement that the tusk sword theme was exhausted; that which takes a short step to discern that, the conversation would risk to drop dead if it weren't for the (quote) ancillary factors which were brought to discussion, to which punctual feedback from the thread author took place. For one who spent hours paging books and burn his brains trying to translate and bring historic material to the thread, this is rather frustrating.
Allow me to correct your assumption (in bold) that there is no evidence of the use of war elephant swords. This is not a recurrent approach only because there is such evidence, as here (and not only) well established; only its precise method, or multiple ones, remain to be clarified but, isn't that what so often occurs to us Westerners, with phenomena that took place in the Orient centuries ago ?

Your humbly ...

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you for your posts so far, but I find it is time to stop now.

[Jens Nordlunde]

I know I asked that the posts should stop, but I find the text below too interesting not to post it.



In The Itinerary of Ludovico di Varthema of Bologna from 1502 to 1508. First published 1510. The Argonaut Press, 1928. This copy by Da Capo Press, published 1970.
The author describes below his travels in India [here from Vijayanagar] in the early 16th century, and on page 51 he describes elephants at war.
"When an elephant goes to battle he carries a saddle, in the same manner as they are born by mules of the kingdom of Naples, fastened underneath by two iron chains. On each side of the said saddle he carries a large and very strong wodden box, and in each box there go three men. On the neck of the elephant, between the boxes, they place a plank the size of half a span [about 10 cm], and between the boxes and the plank a man sits astride who speaks to the elephant, for the said elephant possesses more inteligence than any other animal in the world; so there are in all seven persons who go upond the said elephant: and they go armed with shirts of mail, and with bows and lances, swords and shields. And in like manner they arm the elephant with mail, especially the head and the trunk. They fasten to the trunk a sword two braccia long [one braccia is from 46 - 71 cm], and as thick and as wide as the hand of a man. And in that way they fight. And he who sits upon his neck orders him: "Go forward", or "Turn back", Strike this one", Strike that one", Do not strike any more", and he understands as though he were a human being."

[fernando]

Hello Jens,
I wonder whether you have suggested that it was time to stop posting in this thread beause of critics (read complaints) over freewheeling material or if you were yourself tired with such contextually inevitable digressions.

Now if i may ...Your present citation of Ludovico di Barthema describing war elephants in the kingdom of Bisnaga (Vijayanagara), while bringing nothing particulary new on the subject, confirms something that the skepticals would reject as being a real fact and, at same time, shows consistency with approaches alread contained (even quoting Barthema) in this very thread;the inteligence of the animal, his ability to understand human comand voices, the sword/s he carries in battle and all.
The difference in the manner the animal is sadlled, mounted and equiped with weapons (swords) may obviously depend upon the region of the Indin sub-continent where this takes place ... or even differ from one arsenal to another.

If this is not too soon, enjoy a Merry Christmas .

[ariel]

Now, with these data ( and hints) we can approximate the weight of an “ elephant sword”.
Using Enrico Fermi’s approach ( guesses will correct each other), let’s assume that the average length of braccia is 55 cm, i. e. Blade 110 cm long, width of 10 cm ( width of human palm) and thickness 2 cm ( thickness of human palm), the volume of the blade will be ~2200 cm3. Steel has density of 7.85 g/cm3. Thus the weight of the sword is ~17 kg. Quite manageable, especially for the elephant, but massive enough to cut a soldier thru and thru.

Nikitin, as I suspected , exaggerated a bit even by Russian standards, but this is common to all travelers. Still, it was not an Indian kentar.

Now, we just need a Bollywood movie showing the elephant in action. Blood and gore galore, followed by song and dance on the body-strewn battlefield! I have popcorn ready.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by fernando

If this is not too soon, enjoy a Merry Christmas .

Fernando,
It’s never too soon for good wishes! Same to you and yours!

But... we have Thanksgiving coming next Thursday and are sentenced to chew on a mass of semidigested cardboard popularly known as “turkey”.

This year I am making Leg o’Lamb! With dried apricots and cherries, a touch of Jamaican Jerk ( don’t tell my daughter!), a lot of garlic ( do tell her that!) and a twig of rosemary on the side.
Side dish: basmati rice with real Persian saffron and a lot of almonds.

Our son is bringing over his fiancée. Proposed her month ago, and got enthusiastic “yes”. Yuoo-hooo!!!

Memo to myself: thou shall not overcook lamb.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Fernando, I could not bring anything other than what I have read. I am sorry if you dont find it interesting.
All the best for Christmas and New Year to you.



Ariel, yes your weight suggestion could be correct - about 17 kg.
I think most woud have lost their fighting spirit, if knocked at the body or on the head, by an elephant with such a sword.
The dish you are making sounds fantastic:-).

[fernando]

Do i see some misunderstanding with the braccia interpretation ?

One braccia, italian for fathom, is equivalent to approx. 1,83cm.
Reason why i commentd in my post #63 that two fatoms, allegedly mentioned by Barthema, was surely an exageration.
In a copy of this traveller's Itinerary translated to Castillian in 1526 by Christoval de Arcos, the author mentions 'dos codos' (two cubits) which gives us a more rational length for such swords; a cubit measuring 44-52 cms.

Hopefuly no criticism pops up for freewheeling entries .


,

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ariel

... Thus the weight of the sword is ~17 kg. Quite manageable, especially for the elephant, but massive enough to cut a soldier thru and thru ...

A bit too heavy, though ... despite Fermi's formula. No hollow parts ?