Scottish Dirk Late 18th Century

Battara · 8th December 2018, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Jose,

From quite an early date, the British Government raised regiments in Scotland. Particularly the Highlands. The Government issued these soldiers muskets swords and dirks. Even pistols in the style of the "Doune "All metal , but made in Birmingham or London.

Even the blade shape of yours, (more a straight taper) although a little shorter, is Very like the Government issue in style.

Very best,
Richard.

So we are talking about the government raised regiments after 1745, right?

colin henshaw · 8th December 2018, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

So we are talking about the government raised regiments after 1745, right?

The Black Watch (the 42nd), a Highland regiment was raised around 1725. The Royal Scots, a Lowland regiment was raised in 1633.

Norman McCormick · 8th December 2018, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

So we are talking about the government raised regiments after 1745, right?

Hi.
The fact is that there were more Scots on the Govt side at Culloden than in the army of Charles Edward Stuart https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/battle-culloden and contrary to popular belief not all Scots from the Highlands and Islands joined the army of the 'Prince'. The McCormicks are affiliated with the McLaines of Lochbuie from the Isle of Mull and they were one of the Clans that did not join the fight. Hope this explains a bit more the why the Govt tag might be applicable to your dirk.
Regards,
Norman

Battara · 8th December 2018, 11:24 PM

Ah.........I understand better now, thank you.

On a different matter, 2 questions:

1. should I braze the crack to help stablize the blade?

2. should I attempt to restore the scabbard?

I will also attempt to contact that museum in Scotland.

Pukka Bundook · 9th December 2018, 02:42 AM

Norman,

Have you ever read any of the letters of the Chiefs of Grant? Particularly the personal correspondence?
It is a wonderful window into the time period of the '45 and both before and after.

I looked at it extensively when I procured a flintlock pistol belonging to one of the Chiefs of Grant. It gives us a very good idea of how many saw the rebels as just that, and continued about their daily business. Both Sir James Grant and his son, Ludovic Grant were MP's for their home ridings, and spent much time in London.
I will say no more as it may be deemed off topic, but if you wish to look at these letters, PM me and I'll link you with an on-line source.

Best regards,
Richard.

Kmaddock · 9th December 2018, 04:34 PM

I am unsure about fixing crack
If mine I would leave alone,
if I had to do a repair as in it is likely to break apart if it was picked up roughly I would use silver solder rather than braze as it is easier to work with and will tarnish to look less obtrusive
Lovely item though
Well done

Ken

Battara · 9th December 2018, 08:52 PM

Some good and helpful points Ken, thank you.

I’ll leave it alone for now, but need be in the future, I’ll use very hard silver solder (had forgotten that one).

Jim McDougall · 15th December 2018, 06:32 AM

Still intrigued by this amazing dirk, I have been plowing through as many references as I can find. While enjoying the history of the Scottish clans and Jacobite myths etc. it is exciting to learn more on these topics with this dirk leading the way.

One reference I found was "The Scottish Dirk" (1975/1991) by James D. Forman, probably the foremost author I have found on the topic aside from John Wallace "Scottish Swords and Dirks" (1970).

As previously discussed, the character of this hilt seems to correspond to those of around mid 18th century 1750-60, and as noted the blade seems a cut down English military blade of much earlier.

In reading through the Forman article (p.19) there is a dirk of 1805-1820s with the odd canted stone pommel and very flat styling of the military sort of the 19th century. While clearly having nothing to do with the exceptional 18th century dirk we are looking at here.....it is noted as of the 78th Regiment of Foot......better known as ROSS-SHIRE BUFFS.

The unit was formed at Ft. George in July 1793 by Francis MacKenzie , and by 1794 was off to Holland for campaigns seeing action continually and into Napoleonic campaigns. Ft, George was built post 1746 near Inverness.
The MacKenzie clan is prevalent there and Ross Shire.

I am wondering if perhaps this might be our RB 2

The most unusual element of this dirk is the curious device or fixture on the pommel...the four posts surround with central capstan. The only example of dirk with a similar type of fixture on the pommel in this manner is in Stone (p.209, fig. 259, #1) and of 1700-20, which is far too early in its other features compared to the baluster style in the example posted. I have not found this pommel feature on any other examples in the material I have researched.

The closest thing I can find that resembles this kind of device is the famed Brooch of Lorn which has a stone at center and surrounded by posts with stones at top of each. Here I would note that the regions of Ross Shire extend to the outer Hebrides and Isle of Lewis. This brooch is related to Lords of the Isles from medieval times. While this is a tenuous suggestion it is interesting in the design in comparison.

Possibly this is an earlier dirk which has had the mounts later engraved to this unit and owner? It would be interesting to see if the National Army Museum in London might have rosters of this unit in this period (they were later in the 19th century joined with Seaforth Highanders (1881).

Hope this might be of some help establishing the important pedigree of this dirk.

8th December 2018, 11:24 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Ah.........I understand better now, thank you. On a different matter, 2 questions: 1. should I braze the crack to help stablize the blade? 2. should I attempt to restore the scabbard? I will also attempt to contact that museum in Scotland. Last edited by Battara; 9th December 2018 at 01:42 AM.

15th December 2018, 06:32 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Still intrigued by this amazing dirk, I have been plowing through as many references as I can find. While enjoying the history of the Scottish clans and Jacobite myths etc. it is exciting to learn more on these topics with this dirk leading the way. One reference I found was "The Scottish Dirk" (1975/1991) by James D. Forman, probably the foremost author I have found on the topic aside from John Wallace "Scottish Swords and Dirks" (1970). As previously discussed, the character of this hilt seems to correspond to those of around mid 18th century 1750-60, and as noted the blade seems a cut down English military blade of much earlier. In reading through the Forman article (p.19) there is a dirk of 1805-1820s with the odd canted stone pommel and very flat styling of the military sort of the 19th century. While clearly having nothing to do with the exceptional 18th century dirk we are looking at here.....it is noted as of the 78th Regiment of Foot......better known as ROSS-SHIRE BUFFS. The unit was formed at Ft. George in July 1793 by Francis MacKenzie , and by 1794 was off to Holland for campaigns seeing action continually and into Napoleonic campaigns. Ft, George was built post 1746 near Inverness. The MacKenzie clan is prevalent there and Ross Shire. I am wondering if perhaps this might be our RB 2 The most unusual element of this dirk is the curious device or fixture on the pommel...the four posts surround with central capstan. The only example of dirk with a similar type of fixture on the pommel in this manner is in Stone (p.209, fig. 259, #1) and of 1700-20, which is far too early in its other features compared to the baluster style in the example posted. I have not found this pommel feature on any other examples in the material I have researched. The closest thing I can find that resembles this kind of device is the famed Brooch of Lorn which has a stone at center and surrounded by posts with stones at top of each. Here I would note that the regions of Ross Shire extend to the outer Hebrides and Isle of Lewis. This brooch is related to Lords of the Isles from medieval times. While this is a tenuous suggestion it is interesting in the design in comparison. Possibly this is an earlier dirk which has had the mounts later engraved to this unit and owner? It would be interesting to see if the National Army Museum in London might have rosters of this unit in this period (they were later in the 19th century joined with Seaforth Highanders (1881). Hope this might be of some help establishing the important pedigree of this dirk. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 15th December 2018 at 06:45 AM.

9th December 2018, 02:42 AM	#5
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Norman, Have you ever read any of the letters of the Chiefs of Grant? Particularly the personal correspondence? It is a wonderful window into the time period of the '45 and both before and after. I looked at it extensively when I procured a flintlock pistol belonging to one of the Chiefs of Grant. It gives us a very good idea of how many saw the rebels as just that, and continued about their daily business. Both Sir James Grant and his son, Ludovic Grant were MP's for their home ridings, and spent much time in London. I will say no more as it may be deemed off topic, but if you wish to look at these letters, PM me and I'll link you with an on-line source. Best regards, Richard.

9th December 2018, 04:34 PM	#6
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	I am unsure about fixing crack If mine I would leave alone, if I had to do a repair as in it is likely to break apart if it was picked up roughly I would use silver solder rather than braze as it is easier to work with and will tarnish to look less obtrusive Lovely item though Well done Ken

9th December 2018, 08:52 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Some good and helpful points Ken, thank you. I’ll leave it alone for now, but need be in the future, I’ll use very hard silver solder (had forgotten that one).