Scottish Dirk Late 18th Century

Battara · 5th December 2018, 04:43 AM

Oh Jim, I was excited to be able to get this. I am generally not interested in any Scottish dirk past 1800 due to the transformation of the hilt.

Rifle battalion - not thought of that. The hard part is the first name - James or John?

Still researching this. Thanks for your well informed input! I have the first and last references, but not the 2 middle ones.

BTW - I know I have Irish blood, but Scottish - maybe-ish (if so, perhaps from the McKinnon clan who fought alongside the McDonalds with Bonnie prince Charlie at Culloden!).

Pukka Bundook · 5th December 2018, 02:06 PM

A Very interesting dirk, and as Jim says a little earlier in the century I would say.
Towards the end of the century and into the 1800's, blades were much wider towards the tip, and have a different look to the hilt. This one is definately earlier.
I can't make out the letters/ initials on the gorget, but I see a crown below it.

It Has to be an officer's dirk,...and I am always very careful about using the term "Officer"!
Crown, Gorget, and if we knew what the letters are on the gorget, it may help ID it.
What is interesting to me, is that it appears to have been used a great deal.

Lovely piece and congrats!!

Edited to add;
This hilt has been niggling at me Jose, so Just looked, and the shoulders on this hilt look nearly identical to those on Government hilts, C 1725 -50.

Best,
R

Battara · 5th December 2018, 11:21 PM

Well to answer your question, the initials on the gorget are "JML" I think for "J McLeod" on the backside.

With so many McLeods/MacLeods, honing in on the right military service would be helpful to see who it might fit. I emailed the auction house for info on the former owner but no answer.

shayde78 · 6th December 2018, 02:31 AM

The cross section of the blade 'feels' older than mid-1700s. Not an academic opinion, I'll admit, but there's a look about it that feels older.

Rick · 6th December 2018, 03:32 AM

Well, I emailed the curator of the Royal Regiment of Scotland and enclosed the link to this thread.
Let's see what happens.

E.B. Erickson · 6th December 2018, 01:02 PM

That's a nice dirk! I am in agreement with what Jim says above about it, with the addition that the blade could be from an English military sword, as the narrow & wide fuller combination was very common on English swords, and the Scots often used English blades in their baskets. The thing that would make me think that this may not be an English blade is the the wide fuller seems a bit wide, and the narrow one a bit narrow when compared to most English military blades.

--ElJay

Rick · 6th December 2018, 04:02 PM

Did you successfully straighten this blade Jose?

Norman McCormick · 6th December 2018, 06:51 PM

Hi,
The disposition of the fullers is quite typical of some 18thC blades. See attached photograph of a French Petits Montmorency sabre from which I think one could easily craft a blade similar to the Dirk shown here.
The Dirk is a nice thing and I think it might be worth your while dropping a line and some hi-res photographs to the Arms and Armour curator at the Kelvingrove Museum in Glasgow for more info.
Regards,
Norman.

Battara · 7th December 2018, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Did you successfully straighten this blade Jose?

Sure did. The first picture is how it came, the second picture is after I carefully straightened the blade.

5th December 2018, 02:06 PM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	A Very interesting dirk, and as Jim says a little earlier in the century I would say. Towards the end of the century and into the 1800's, blades were much wider towards the tip, and have a different look to the hilt. This one is definately earlier. I can't make out the letters/ initials on the gorget, but I see a crown below it. It Has to be an officer's dirk,...and I am always very careful about using the term "Officer"! Crown, Gorget, and if we knew what the letters are on the gorget, it may help ID it. What is interesting to me, is that it appears to have been used a great deal. Lovely piece and congrats!! Edited to add; This hilt has been niggling at me Jose, so Just looked, and the shoulders on this hilt look nearly identical to those on Government hilts, C 1725 -50. Best, R Last edited by Pukka Bundook; 5th December 2018 at 04:09 PM.

6th December 2018, 06:51 PM	#8
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi, The disposition of the fullers is quite typical of some 18thC blades. See attached photograph of a French Petits Montmorency sabre from which I think one could easily craft a blade similar to the Dirk shown here. The Dirk is a nice thing and I think it might be worth your while dropping a line and some hi-res photographs to the Arms and Armour curator at the Kelvingrove Museum in Glasgow for more info. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

5th December 2018, 04:43 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Oh Jim, I was excited to be able to get this. I am generally not interested in any Scottish dirk past 1800 due to the transformation of the hilt. Rifle battalion - not thought of that. The hard part is the first name - James or John? Still researching this. Thanks for your well informed input! I have the first and last references, but not the 2 middle ones. BTW - I know I have Irish blood, but Scottish - maybe-ish (if so, perhaps from the McKinnon clan who fought alongside the McDonalds with Bonnie prince Charlie at Culloden!).

5th December 2018, 11:21 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Well to answer your question, the initials on the gorget are "JML" I think for "J McLeod" on the backside. With so many McLeods/MacLeods, honing in on the right military service would be helpful to see who it might fit. I emailed the auction house for info on the former owner but no answer.

6th December 2018, 02:31 AM	#4
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	The cross section of the blade 'feels' older than mid-1700s. Not an academic opinion, I'll admit, but there's a look about it that feels older.

6th December 2018, 03:32 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Well, I emailed the curator of the Royal Regiment of Scotland and enclosed the link to this thread. Let's see what happens.

6th December 2018, 01:02 PM	#6
E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 61	That's a nice dirk! I am in agreement with what Jim says above about it, with the addition that the blade could be from an English military sword, as the narrow & wide fuller combination was very common on English swords, and the Scots often used English blades in their baskets. The thing that would make me think that this may not be an English blade is the the wide fuller seems a bit wide, and the narrow one a bit narrow when compared to most English military blades. --ElJay

6th December 2018, 04:02 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Did you successfully straighten this blade Jose?