Scottish Dirk Late 18th Century

Battara · 4th December 2018, 06:21 AM

Here are the engravings on the front and back of the silver mounts of the hilt and scabbard. The name: "J McLeod". There is a crown stamp and the pictures of cannons, battle flags, and swords, and spears indicate to me that this person was also an officer in the British military.

My 2 questions:

1. Does the presence of cannons indicate being part of an artillery unit?

2. What does "RB 2" mean?

Other comments welcomed as well.

Rick · 4th December 2018, 05:25 PM

That also looks like a Gorget engraved on one of the panels.
So, officer?

Oh yeah Jose ; "There can be only one.."

Battara · 5th December 2018, 03:30 AM

GOOD POINT RICK! I missed that. Many thanks.

Jim McDougall · 5th December 2018, 04:15 AM

Jose!!! This is an absolutely phenomenal dirk!! and my Highland blood is raging with envy

I have been going through resources for hours and I feel confident this example is much as you have suggested, but I think more toward 1770s because of the wider 'haunches' in the beautifully Celtic knot baluster hilt. The metal studs are of this period to 1790s.
Whitelaw (1908 (1977), p.313) notes that after the Disarming Acts of 1746, following the tragedy at Culloden, proscribed Scots from owning weapons. However the dirk, with its utilitarian purposes was typically permitted, and often the now banned Scottish basket hilts were dismantled and blades repurposed into those for dirks.

This blade seems likely to be one of these blades as its profile seems contrary to most specifically for dirks, and the fuller at the forte resemble known Solingen backsword blade types.

Clearly this dirk is for an officer in a Scottish regiment of the third quarter 18th c.+ as suggested by the military motif, the gorget, sword, cannons and the RB 2 is of course likely a regimental unit. This may well be a heirloom blade mounted in military dress as noted. It would be exciting to imagine that the heirloom blade was in use at the time of Culloden.

The cannon do not suggest artillery ...perhaps the RB 2 could mean Rifle Battalion 2 or some such designation but those units seem much later.

The style of pommel and the mounts predate the familiar stone mounted dirk pommels which began around 1800. It is amazing to have the scabbard also! This is truly amazing Jose, congratulations!

Sources: "The Scottish Dirk" James D. Forman, 1991

"The Scottish Armoury" D. Caldwell, 1979

"Scottish Arms Makers" Charles Whitelaw, 1908 (1977)

" Scottish Swords & Dirks", John Wallace, 1970

Battara · 5th December 2018, 04:43 AM

Oh Jim, I was excited to be able to get this. I am generally not interested in any Scottish dirk past 1800 due to the transformation of the hilt.

Rifle battalion - not thought of that. The hard part is the first name - James or John?

Still researching this. Thanks for your well informed input! I have the first and last references, but not the 2 middle ones.

BTW - I know I have Irish blood, but Scottish - maybe-ish (if so, perhaps from the McKinnon clan who fought alongside the McDonalds with Bonnie prince Charlie at Culloden!).

Pukka Bundook · 5th December 2018, 02:06 PM

A Very interesting dirk, and as Jim says a little earlier in the century I would say.
Towards the end of the century and into the 1800's, blades were much wider towards the tip, and have a different look to the hilt. This one is definately earlier.
I can't make out the letters/ initials on the gorget, but I see a crown below it.

It Has to be an officer's dirk,...and I am always very careful about using the term "Officer"!
Crown, Gorget, and if we knew what the letters are on the gorget, it may help ID it.
What is interesting to me, is that it appears to have been used a great deal.

Lovely piece and congrats!!

Edited to add;
This hilt has been niggling at me Jose, so Just looked, and the shoulders on this hilt look nearly identical to those on Government hilts, C 1725 -50.

Best,
R

Battara · 5th December 2018, 11:21 PM

Well to answer your question, the initials on the gorget are "JML" I think for "J McLeod" on the backside.

With so many McLeods/MacLeods, honing in on the right military service would be helpful to see who it might fit. I emailed the auction house for info on the former owner but no answer.

shayde78 · 6th December 2018, 02:31 AM

The cross section of the blade 'feels' older than mid-1700s. Not an academic opinion, I'll admit, but there's a look about it that feels older.

Rick · 6th December 2018, 03:32 AM

Well, I emailed the curator of the Royal Regiment of Scotland and enclosed the link to this thread.
Let's see what happens.

4th December 2018, 06:21 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Here are the engravings on the front and back of the silver mounts of the hilt and scabbard. The name: "J McLeod". There is a crown stamp and the pictures of cannons, battle flags, and swords, and spears indicate to me that this person was also an officer in the British military. My 2 questions: 1. Does the presence of cannons indicate being part of an artillery unit? 2. What does "RB 2" mean? Other comments welcomed as well. Attached Images

5th December 2018, 02:06 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	A Very interesting dirk, and as Jim says a little earlier in the century I would say. Towards the end of the century and into the 1800's, blades were much wider towards the tip, and have a different look to the hilt. This one is definately earlier. I can't make out the letters/ initials on the gorget, but I see a crown below it. It Has to be an officer's dirk,...and I am always very careful about using the term "Officer"! Crown, Gorget, and if we knew what the letters are on the gorget, it may help ID it. What is interesting to me, is that it appears to have been used a great deal. Lovely piece and congrats!! Edited to add; This hilt has been niggling at me Jose, so Just looked, and the shoulders on this hilt look nearly identical to those on Government hilts, C 1725 -50. Best, R Last edited by Pukka Bundook; 5th December 2018 at 04:09 PM.

4th December 2018, 05:25 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	That also looks like a Gorget engraved on one of the panels. So, officer? Oh yeah Jose ; "There can be only one.."

5th December 2018, 03:30 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	GOOD POINT RICK! I missed that. Many thanks.

5th December 2018, 04:15 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Jose!!! This is an absolutely phenomenal dirk!! and my Highland blood is raging with envy I have been going through resources for hours and I feel confident this example is much as you have suggested, but I think more toward 1770s because of the wider 'haunches' in the beautifully Celtic knot baluster hilt. The metal studs are of this period to 1790s. Whitelaw (1908 (1977), p.313) notes that after the Disarming Acts of 1746, following the tragedy at Culloden, proscribed Scots from owning weapons. However the dirk, with its utilitarian purposes was typically permitted, and often the now banned Scottish basket hilts were dismantled and blades repurposed into those for dirks. This blade seems likely to be one of these blades as its profile seems contrary to most specifically for dirks, and the fuller at the forte resemble known Solingen backsword blade types. Clearly this dirk is for an officer in a Scottish regiment of the third quarter 18th c.+ as suggested by the military motif, the gorget, sword, cannons and the RB 2 is of course likely a regimental unit. This may well be a heirloom blade mounted in military dress as noted. It would be exciting to imagine that the heirloom blade was in use at the time of Culloden. The cannon do not suggest artillery ...perhaps the RB 2 could mean Rifle Battalion 2 or some such designation but those units seem much later. The style of pommel and the mounts predate the familiar stone mounted dirk pommels which began around 1800. It is amazing to have the scabbard also! This is truly amazing Jose, congratulations! Sources: "The Scottish Dirk" James D. Forman, 1991 "The Scottish Armoury" D. Caldwell, 1979 "Scottish Arms Makers" Charles Whitelaw, 1908 (1977) " Scottish Swords & Dirks", John Wallace, 1970

5th December 2018, 04:43 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Oh Jim, I was excited to be able to get this. I am generally not interested in any Scottish dirk past 1800 due to the transformation of the hilt. Rifle battalion - not thought of that. The hard part is the first name - James or John? Still researching this. Thanks for your well informed input! I have the first and last references, but not the 2 middle ones. BTW - I know I have Irish blood, but Scottish - maybe-ish (if so, perhaps from the McKinnon clan who fought alongside the McDonalds with Bonnie prince Charlie at Culloden!).

5th December 2018, 11:21 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Well to answer your question, the initials on the gorget are "JML" I think for "J McLeod" on the backside. With so many McLeods/MacLeods, honing in on the right military service would be helpful to see who it might fit. I emailed the auction house for info on the former owner but no answer.

6th December 2018, 02:31 AM	#8
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	The cross section of the blade 'feels' older than mid-1700s. Not an academic opinion, I'll admit, but there's a look about it that feels older.

6th December 2018, 03:32 AM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Well, I emailed the curator of the Royal Regiment of Scotland and enclosed the link to this thread. Let's see what happens.