Elephant swords

mahratt · 2nd December 2018, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

Kentar

Kentar - Russian measure of weight, introduced in the 15th century, which is equal to 2.5 poods (approximately 41 kg)

Richard Furrer · 3rd December 2018, 02:13 AM

I have seen them in India in rural museums. I will try to located the photos. They were massive in scale and thickness.

ariel · 3rd December 2018, 05:36 AM

Max Fasner’s dictionary: “ According to Prokopius, Kentar equaled 100 liters, and from the end of XVI century to 2 1/2 poods. A.K.Kazambek defines kentar as a unit of weight between 1 1/2 to 10 1/2 poods”,
.
Pood ( Russian пуд) as a unit of weight unofficially equals 40 pounds i.e. 18,1 kg , but was officially defined in 1899 as equal to 38.05 pounds, i.e.17.2 kg.

The hooker is which pound?
The very word funt came to Russia after English word pound.

Classical British pound is 453 gram, but official Russian pound ( funt) is only 405 gram, and Russian pharmacy pound ( funt) is 354 gram.

Thus, we really do not know the actual weight Nikitin referred to. Obviously, he could not use 2 1/2 poods as a kentar, since this was defined about 100 years after his death and we do not know precisely what kentar meant in the XV century. Was it 100 kg ( 100 liters) or 1.5 poods i.e. around 24 kg?

I am leaning to much lower numbers: from the practical point of view there is no need to create a super heavy cutting blade. It should be just massive enough to sustain any mechanical stress. Second, and most important, Fernando’s quote of 5 such swords on each tusk ( I.e. 100 up to 500 kg) would likely break it.

Richard’s info of actual presence of these implements in Indian museums gives the best way to figure it out: just weigh them:-)))

fernando · 3rd December 2018, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

...Second, and most important, Fernando’s quote of 5 such swords on each tusk ( I.e. 100 up to 500 kg) would likely break it...

As i started by saying, these things don't have to be all of the same format, especially in such vast territory, and by the time there was no armour standardization

.
Certainly five swords in a set must be composed with units much smaller than a single one; completely a different apparatus ... not excluding that the narrator (who was in loco) had not taken his medication or the natives who told him about it were cheating.
You have in the other hand a different chroniclar comparing the ones he saw to plow irons. I assume this one 'saw' them (not told about), as natives would not use the plow iron term.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

...I should have added that the sword shown from the MET weighs 5lb 3oz. - 2362g.
I see no reason why the swords should be so heavy, that the elephant could hardly lift it, or that the elephant would easily be tired...

I don't know.These guys can carry a whole tree trunk in their tusks; i wouldn't think 2 1/2 Kilos is a great deal for them. Besides, them not being properly keen in fencing arts, these 'swords' must resist violent thrusts.

3rd December 2018, 02:13 AM	#2
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	I have seen them in India in rural museums. I will try to located the photos. They were massive in scale and thickness.

3rd December 2018, 05:36 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Max Fasner’s dictionary: “ According to Prokopius, Kentar equaled 100 liters, and from the end of XVI century to 2 1/2 poods. A.K.Kazambek defines kentar as a unit of weight between 1 1/2 to 10 1/2 poods”, . Pood ( Russian пуд) as a unit of weight unofficially equals 40 pounds i.e. 18,1 kg , but was officially defined in 1899 as equal to 38.05 pounds, i.e.17.2 kg. The hooker is which pound? The very word funt came to Russia after English word pound. Classical British pound is 453 gram, but official Russian pound ( funt) is only 405 gram, and Russian pharmacy pound ( funt) is 354 gram. Thus, we really do not know the actual weight Nikitin referred to. Obviously, he could not use 2 1/2 poods as a kentar, since this was defined about 100 years after his death and we do not know precisely what kentar meant in the XV century. Was it 100 kg ( 100 liters) or 1.5 poods i.e. around 24 kg? I am leaning to much lower numbers: from the practical point of view there is no need to create a super heavy cutting blade. It should be just massive enough to sustain any mechanical stress. Second, and most important, Fernando’s quote of 5 such swords on each tusk ( I.e. 100 up to 500 kg) would likely break it. Richard’s info of actual presence of these implements in Indian museums gives the best way to figure it out: just weigh them:-)))