Comment?

[Gustav]

Actually Blumbangan of initial Keris doesn't look Mboto Adeg (as it should be with Surakarta Keris), it could be square, in pictures it looks almost Rubuh, perhaps also some strange image deformation (the pictures look really distorted).

Kembang Kacang looks like Madura.

Poyuhan is disturbed.

As the name Jayasukadgo was mentioned (of course, having nothing to do with the initial Keris), attached a picture of a part of Keris which has been attributed to Jayasukadgo.

[A. G. Maisey]

You are correct Gustav, the blumbangan of the current era nginden keris does not appear to be textbook Surakarta, however the only keris that do stay more or less strictly within the parameters of tangguh indicators are those that have been made by a karaton empu for use within a karaton, with all other keris there can be greater or lesser degrees of deviation from the guidelines that provide our indicators. When this deviation is present it becomes a matter of forming an opinion based upon the weight of evidence. "Tangguh" means "opinion".

There is another thing that also needs to be understood in assessing the form of a blumbangan, it is sometimes not really possible to assess form from a photograph, the internal barrier of the blumbangan can vary, depending upon how the palemahan and the bungkul have been carved, so a blumbangan that appears to be one form in a photo, can be different in the hand.

In the case of the keris under discussion the weight of evidence points firmly at Surakarta. Bear in mind, this is a current era keris. In other words it was made by somebody who is still living or has only recently passed away. We know where keris of this type were produced. We know the people who were capable of producing a keris like this. In the applicable period, those who were capable of producing this keris lived in Surakarta. Nowhere else. Just Solo.

Then we have the ron dha. In a young keris this form of ron dha is uniquely Surakarta. Couple the ron dha with the pawakan and you have an inarguable attribution of Surakarta, even without any other indicators being in compliance.

The agreed characteristic of a Madura kembang kacang is that it is whispy, one of the characteristics of a Surakarta kembang kacang is that it is substantial and heavy through its base. The KK on this keris is not at all typical of a Madura KK.

In respect of the work of Jayasukadgo. He was renowned for being able to do anything with pamor, however, he did not only produce keris that bore pamor, for those who could not afford his highest quality work he produced keris with no pamor, and with deviant features.

For the last 40 years I have been the custodian of one of these Jayasukadgo keris that has no pamor and possesses deviant characteristics. I do not own this keris, it is a pusaka keris, the previous family custodians are known, the maker is known. I have been entrusted with the care of this keris until the person who should have it is ready to accept it. Regrettably, although this person is already 50 years old he is still not ready to accept responsibility for his family's keris.

This keris is very definitely a Jayasukadgo, the family knows who made it, it has been recognised as Jayasukadgo by Javanese people who are sufficiently well educated to reliably recognise his work. But although it is a Jayasukadgo, and although it is recognisably Surakarta, it has some characteristics that are not typically Surakarta.

We really do need a very great depth of hands on experience to be able to apply the indicators that we use in classifying a keris.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

For the last 40 years I have been the custodian of one of these Jayasukadgo keris that has no pamor and possesses deviant characteristics. I do not own this keris, it is a pusaka keris, the previous family custodians are known, the maker is known. I have been entrusted with the care of this keris until the person who should have it is ready to accept it. Regrettably, although this person is already 50 years old he is still not ready to accept responsibility for his family's keris.

Hi Alan. Without getting too deep into this particular situation could you speak more generally on what is usually expected or required of one before they might actually be ready to accept such responsibility for such a keris pusaka?

[A. G. Maisey]

It is difficult for me to speak in general terms David, because that would require knowledge of a number of situations where I knew of a similar situation to my own, and I do not know of any other similar situations to my own.

So, I cannot speak in general terms, only specific terms. In my case I was given this responsibility because of personal relationships, trust, and the people involved did not know of anybody else who had my understanding of keris and the associated traditions.

The family involved is not a noble family, but it was a powerful family prior to Independence.

[Gustav]

This is a very interesting topic, I have thought about it for a longer time.

At first, about the drawings from Haryoguritno's book - they seem to make the differences between Greneng by different Empu so clear - but he himself seems to have said, to be unable to distinguish the work of one empu from another. So even these quite analytical dravings are merely attributions?

The second point - the only Empu whose output has been photographically recorded and is attributable with some bigger certainty is Karyo di Kromo. If we look at the pictures in Groneman's articles, his Greneng is of course always similar, but there are noticeable differences between Greneng on different blades. Why? There are at least two possible explanations.

As we all know, photographing Keris (and particularly Greneng) is not easy at all. The slightest angle makes it appear different.

And of course, compared to Jayasukadgo, Karyo di Kromo was a lesser Empu.

Or perhaps is there a possibility that the Greneng wasn't 100% identical on all blades made by an Empu during the span of his lifetime?

Attached a picture of Greneng of the same blade I posted earlier. There is a residue of oil/dirt in the Dha of Ron Dha nunut, so it appears to be smaller in picture.

Then there is another discrepancy to the rules - the elements of Greneng nevertheless appear to become bigger towards Kanyut Buntu.

And also a picture of Tombak attributed to Jayasukadgo, posted by Alan a while ago.

[Bill M]

I have not tried to study the keris terminology in many years. I was not good at learning the physical points, ever. My "study" was in "feeling". I had and have great teachers. I see something, I like and I acquired it.

In many, in ALL, religious studies quickly evolve into another "level" that transcends physicality, because religious studies, by Nature, take us into this other "level" where the rules are very different.

Paradoxes occur in all deep studies of religion. These are only "paradoxes" because we try to reconcile them by using our five senses of the level, Malkuth.

All great teachers, great creations, like well-done keris for example, are rooted in our five senses. Roadmaps that reach us to finer levels.

So, using the best pieces, created by the best craftsmen, are roadmaps -or even not created by the best craftsmen have personal value.

To reach beyond, we study the roadmaps, but to have an inkling of what is beyond, and that beyond is where we are drawn. We are all doing this. It is our nature, whether great spiritual teacher or the average person.

So it takes meditation to study further. Allow our minds to trace the shapes in the keris, and go further. Yes, study the details, the shapes, the materials and how they are arranged, but always a roadmap is not the territory

Parts of the roadmaps teach a part of the territory and each person's truth is only and always personal to each person. Each person has a different perspective. Each perspective has value. Some of these perspectives are not relevant, some are to me.

For me, I try to see, think, feel, but I must always be aware that another person's perspective either moves me forward by integrating my own, if not, I try to walk away and find that something, that personal Beauty that resonates with my inner core.

I am having a very strong desire and am returning to the "study of keris." There are great examples, great teachers, great roadmaps, here.

I am very much attracted to the ron dha. And I am looking for the "man" in the patterns in the keris.

These private words I speak in public, but, these are these words are mostly things I want to hear because I need to study.

Namaste

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Gustav.

I was hoping that this might resonate with you, and yes, indeed it has. I was trying to get somebody to think seriously about this idea of the ron dha being the signature of an empu, and you have done just that.

In my post #31, I said:-
"--- We believe that the way in which a genuine empu cuts his greneng, and most especially his ron dha is more or less his signature to his work, and that it does not vary. Thus, the ron dha is the indicator of the empu who has made the keris.---"

The key word in this paragraph is "believe".

How many times have I said that:-

"keris knowledge is not knowledge as we understand the word, it is belief"

When it comes to classifying a keris according to geographic point of origin, or point of origin in time, we are dealing with a belief system, not all that much different to any system of religious belief. The whole thing depends upon circular reasoning. What I have witnessed more than once is that with a keris or other item of extremely high quality, a Javanese ahli keris (keris expert) will first attempt to classify the item according to the ruler during whose reign it was made, then if he is required to name an empu, he will assess the level of quality, if it is of extremely high quality, that item of tosan aji will be attributed to the leading empu of that particular era. The foundation is supposition, and all that follows is supposition, but it becomes generally believed supposition, with one supposition supporting the other.

The tombak that I posted and that Gustav has referenced was given as Jayasukadgo by two different ahli keris, at two different times. Neither was Empu Suparman, who had already left us at the time I acquired this tombak. However, the major identifier of this tombak as Jayasukadgo, was a recognised empu of the highest order --- and clearly his identification is at variance with Haryoguritno's.

Identification of a maker is a very high level of the practice of Tangguh classification, and it can greatly influence values.

The widely held belief amongst truly keris literate people is that a ron dha is the signature of the maker of a piece. Let us accept, for the sake of discussion, that this is so. Very few people sign their name in exactly the same way each and every time, in those circumstances where a signature becomes a proof of identity, we find that the examiner of the signature does not look for perfect repetition, but rather seeks to compare an overall form. So perhaps it might be the same with the ron dha, if it truly is the signature of the maker, we do not look for perfect conformity, but rather for overall consistency.

For me, the point of this whole issue is this:-

when we seek to classify a blade, in other words, to give it a tangguh, we cannot approach this exercise as if it was an exercise that is based in precision, we do have indicators that we can use, but when we identify an indicator in a keris, we must not expect it to be precisely the same as the written, or previously recorded form, all of the object that we seek to classify must be examined with the utmost care, and the indicators balanced one against the other. This is not something that can be learnt from written words of drawings, or photos. It can only be learnt by face to face tuition over a lengthy period and under the guidance of an acknowledged master.

There can never be a substitute for experience, and the field of keris is no different to the other fields of art. The person who is called upon to verify that Rembrandt was the man who painted that dirty, cracked little painting that turned up in Aunt Jessie's attic does not use an engineering approach in order to form his opinion, he uses defined indicators and his experience.

The indicators that we use in classifying a keris are only as good as the person who is using them.

But the bottom line is this:- the opinion of that experienced person will in most cases reflect the opinion of the bulk of other persons who possess a similar level of knowledge and experience, thus it becomes something that most people can believe, in other words, an item of belief.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Gustav

As the name Jayasukadgo was mentioned (of course, having nothing to do with the initial Keris), attached a picture of a part of Keris which has been attributed to Jayasukadgo.

The pamor pattern of this kris looks very similar to te one belonging to Bill?
Regards

[Gustav]

Yes Jean, emerging of certain patterns in certain places is a regularity.

Otherwise there are worlds between these two blades.

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

The pamor pattern of this kris looks very similar to te one belonging to Bill?
Regards

Jean, i believe you are confused because Gustav actually posted TWO keris as a comparative. The first one IS Bill's keris. The second one is a tighter shot on the one he attributes to Jayasukadgo.

[A. G. Maisey]

I completely agree with you Gustav, the difference between Bill's keris and a Jayasukadgo is comparable to the difference between a Volkswagon Passat and a Mercedes-Benz Maybach Exelero --- and so is the market price.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Jean, i believe you are confused because Gustav actually posted TWO keris as a comparative. The first one IS Bill's keris. The second one is a tighter shot on the one he attributes to Jayasukadgo.

Thank you David, you are correct and sorry for the confusion. It would be nice if Gustav could show us a full pic of the Maybach Exelero
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, possibly Gustav is under some restriction on publication. I have photos, in fact many photos, of keris that when I obtained those photos I was placed under a vow that I would never permit anybody else to look at them, and I, myself, could only look at them on a moonless night with the lights out.

Not everybody appreciates having the world look at the things for which they have responsibility.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, possibly Gustav is under some restriction on publication. I have photos, in fact many photos, of keris that when I obtained those photos I was placed under a vow that I would never permit anybody else to look at them, and I, myself, could only look at them on a moonless night with the lights out.

Not everybody appreciates having the world look at the things for which they have responsibility.

I agree and follow the same personal restrictions.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Bill M

I agree and follow the same personal restrictions.

I agree provided that:
. The kris is not under my ownership and I have no formal authorization from the owner to show it.
. Or the kris is really too valuable (or for another valid reason) to be openly displayed.
But I believe that if you start showing part of it, it is not fair not to show it fully as it is frustrating for the other members.
Regards