South Arabian spears

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Great picture of the Yemeni Sheikh with a spear … Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17308

These are similar to Omani spears and Khanjar 1 is correct about rarity indeed there are so few I have only seen one which is in the Richardson and Dor.. see above reference .(The historical catalog of Omani Traditional artefacts ) It was the primary weapon before gunpowder but gradually became superseded although it passed on its name to the rifle weapon Rumi or Roomi or ar Rumh the Arabic word for spear which was probably taken from the word for Rome and likely to come directly from the Romans meant long pointed leaf and adopted for spear... which in turn was adopted for long gun.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Great picture of the Yemeni Sheikh with a spear … Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17308

These are similar to Omani spears and Khanjar 1 is correct about rarity indeed there are so few I have only seen one which is in the Richardson and Dor.. see above reference .(The historical catalog of Omani Traditional artefacts ) It was the primary weapon before gunpowder but gradually became superseded although it passed on its name to the rifle weapon Rumi or Roomi or ar Rumh the Arabic word for spear which was probably taken from the word for Rome and likely to come directly from the Romans meant long pointed leaf and adopted for spear... which in turn was adopted for long gun.

Rumh رمح and Rum روم have nothing in common. Arabs do not call spears Rumi, not in the past and not in the present. Rumh, Shalfa and Gena are the names most commonly used through out the Arab world. And the name for spear did not get passed down to a fire arm. This is pure misinformation that has no linguistic or historic background. I advice forum moderates to nominate anyone who can speak and read Arabic to moderate such misinformation that somehow get passed out as facts.

On topic: Arab spears are an interesting topic, the most interesting part about them is that ones you'd find used by Arabs in Syria or Nejd or as far south as Yemen, would look nearly identical thus likely pointing to being sourced by majority from a single producing region. Blades vary, some I have shown in the forum with Qama blades. Some have good quality steel but most are iron, with a few rare ones with bronze spear heads fitted to an iron shaft.

Elgood mentions a production centre in Iraq and historically, AlTaif in alHassa is famed for producing a type of spears, with some reference going back to pre islamic times.

Lances too are also produced locally, with some confused for spear butts.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Rumh رمح and Rum روم have nothing in common. Arabs do not call spears Rumi, not in the past and not in the present. Rumh, Shalfa and Gena are the names most commonly used through out the Arab world. And the name for spear did not get passed down to a fire arm. This is pure misinformation that has no linguistic or historic background. I advice forum moderates to nominate anyone who can speak and read Arabic to moderate such misinformation that somehow get passed out as facts.

On topic: Arab spears are an interesting topic, the most interesting part about them is that ones you'd find used by Arabs in Syria or Nejd or as far south as Yemen, would look nearly identical thus likely pointing to being sourced by majority from a single producing region. Blades vary, some I have shown in the forum with Qama blades. Some have good quality steel but most are iron, with a few rare ones with bronze spear heads fitted to an iron shaft.

Elgood mentions a production centre in Iraq and historically, AlTaif in alHassa is famed for producing a type of spears, with some reference going back to pre islamic times.

Lances too are also produced locally, with some confused for spear butts.

Wonderfully authoritative and informative insight, especially in the perspective that there is more consistency in forms of spears and lances throughout the Arab world. I have always regarded that definition as far broader in definition than Arabia alone, as the Arabs of course populated many other places significantly.

With the terms noted Rumh, Shalfa and Gena, it seems these are indeed proper terms used, however, though I am no linguist, there does not seem to be any documented or reliable etymological explanation for loan words used locally, or in various contexts.

For example, Elgood notes terms used to describe various swords (by blades it seems typically) as the term 'shintayan' MAY refer to St. Etienne(France); or the term 'majar' MAY refer to 'Hungarian' (blades often seen on swords in Arabia), while 'al Hindi' of course refers to Indian.

Is it not possible that colloquially, in this manner of loan words describing certain character of a weapon or even origin of a term might extend in the same manner to 'rumh' as rumi' . Often such uses are nearly impossible to detect etymologically, as has often been seen in countless examples.


With the extension of the term for spear/lance colloquially, in military contexts, as I know Ibrahiim is deeply familiar, terms are often used toward weapons in slang or vernular use which are obviously not the proper one for the weapon. A heavy machine gun is often termed a 'saw', while obviously not the cutting tool..and so on . As the Rumh was a traditional weapon used by tribesmen, why would such troops not use a traditional term colloquially referring to their rifles?

Clearly these kinds of uses are not known to many, nor commonly, outside such military circles, and are not documented accordingly.


It is interesting to see perspective from clearly different sides, and to be able to learn more from them. I am under the impression that Bedouin tribes vary dramatically throughout the regions they occupy, and am curious about not only the terms they would use for these type weapons, which also vary in use and form as well.


Also, I am curious about the idea of a central location for production of these weapons, as my impression of the spears/lances used by various tribal populations were often repurposed and sometimes composite items produced locally. With the differences in semantics and perhaps dialect, it seems there might be any number of local terms or expressions....at least that is the way it is in many other cultural spheres.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Wonderfully authoritative and informative insight, especially in the perspective that there is more consistency in forms of spears and lances throughout the Arab world. I have always regarded that definition as far broader in definition than Arabia alone, as the Arabs of course populated many other places significantly.

With the terms noted Rumh, Shalfa and Gena, it seems these are indeed proper terms used, however, though I am no linguist, there does not seem to be any documented or reliable etymological explanation for loan words used locally, or in various contexts.

For example, Elgood notes terms used to describe various swords (by blades it seems typically) as the term 'shintayan' MAY refer to St. Etienne(France); or the term 'majar' MAY refer to 'Hungarian' (blades often seen on swords in Arabia), while 'al Hindi' of course refers to Indian.

Is it not possible that colloquially, in this manner of loan words describing certain character of a weapon or even origin of a term might extend in the same manner to 'rumh' as rumi' . Often such uses are nearly impossible to detect etymologically, as has often been seen in countless examples.


With the extension of the term for spear/lance colloquially, in military contexts, as I know Ibrahiim is deeply familiar, terms are often used toward weapons in slang or vernular use which are obviously not the proper one for the weapon. A heavy machine gun is often termed a 'saw', while obviously not the cutting tool..and so on . As the Rumh was a traditional weapon used by tribesmen, why would such troops not use a traditional term colloquially referring to their rifles?

Clearly these kinds of uses are not known to many, nor commonly, outside such military circles, and are not documented accordingly.


It is interesting to see perspective from clearly different sides, and to be able to learn more from them. I am under the impression that Bedouin tribes vary dramatically throughout the regions they occupy, and am curious about not only the terms they would use for these type weapons, which also vary in use and form as well.

Jim,

I understand the confusion from a non Arab speaker's position. But beyond that, even with minimal ability to read Arab letters is enough to dismiss this absurdity.

For a comparison, this connection between Rumi and Rumh sounds as ridiculous as claiming the word 'sword' originates from the word 'sweet' simply because the first two letters are the same. There is simply no chance. The word Rumh is not a loan word. It is very much a codified word that has mention in Arab literature through out history.

Edition:

As some may know, Arabic words tend to have an origin word. The word Rumh رمح happens to be one. From this origin word comes many other words including verbs and nouns. that can be easily looked up in any Arabic dictionary. The absurdity of claiming an original Arabic word for the most basic and oldest of weapons in human history to be an abbreviation of Rum is absurd. It also sends forth all forms of misinformation, did the Arabs discover the spear through the Romans? let this sink in for a little bit.

Also, another missed bit of misinformation is claiming Rum refers to Rome. Anyone with a basic read through Islamic history and Arab terminology knows that when Rum is mentioned geographically it refers to the land now known as Turkey. And as people, it refers to the Eastern Roman Empire.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Jim,

I understand the confusion from a non Arab speaker's position. But beyond that, even with minimal ability to read Arab letters is enough to dismiss this absurdity.

For a comparison, this connection between Rumi and Rumh sounds as ridiculous as claiming the word 'sword' originates from the word 'sweet' simply because the first two letters are the same. There is simply no chance. The word Rumh is not a loan word. It is very much a codified word that has mention in Arab literature through out history.

Thank you for the explanation, which again well explains your perspective, and while clearly and understandably quite personal, is a bit strongly worded. I have always felt it imperative in discussion to acknowledge and entertain other views without discount or rebuke, as in many cases even explanations which may seem ridiculous to some may have some bearing. In any case I appreciate your views in the manner I have noted.


With that it would be great to get back to the discussion on spears, and can you say more on the word Rumh? You use the term 'codified', does that mean obliquely, etymologically explained? Can Arabic words be identified in accord with etymological explanation in the manner of English etc. ? or are the identifications broader? There are some interesting explanations in discussion of weapons in "Armies of the Caliphs" by Hugh Kennedy.

If you know this reference, your take please.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you for the explanation, which again well explains your perspective, and while clearly and understandably quite personal, is a bit strongly worded. I have always felt it imperative in discussion to acknowledge and entertain other views without discount or rebuke, as in many cases even explanations which may seem ridiculous to some may have some bearing. In any case I appreciate your views in the manner I have noted.

Jim. I appreciate your effort to try and be a middle man. But what I am saying is not a perspective. Its pretty much Arabian linguistic facts. Your lack of knowledge and Ibrahim's obvious ignorance in the Arabic language should not be grounds for misinformation. Here we have a clear example of an English man pretending to be Arab (or a Baluch in this case) using English Transliteration of Arab words to come forth with the most laughable of arguments.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Jim. I appreciate your effort to try and be a middle man. But what I am saying is not a perspective. Its pretty much Arabian linguistic facts. Your lack of knowledge and Ibrahim's obvious ignorance in the Arabic language should not be grounds for misinformation. Here we have a clear example of an English man pretending to be Arab (or a Baluch in this case) using English Transliteration of Arab words to come forth with the most laughable of arguments.

Far beneath you Lofty, or perhaps not. I dont think my comments and observations warrant your comment regarding lack of knowledge as they were expressed as suggestions with reasonable plausibility. Your accusations on Ibrahiim are personal and misplaced here. I do not believe the use of a pseudonym, a well known custom here and on many forums, constitutes any form of ethnic deception here any more than in the areas he has lived for many years.I am sure the moderators will answer your call and your goals realized.