Shamshir cartouche, calligraphy help

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th November 2018, 09:54 PM

That is a Shamshiir and is expertly done in a dominant ladder pattern. I will have my interpreter have a look at the script although it is bound to be one of the standard famous artisan style inscriptions even though to me what is just as important is the magic square treatment ...Talismanic and great to see on this blade.
I suspect the hilt has shrunk away from its metal mounting but you might be lucky in repairing that with continued treatment and oiling...
I will get back to the translation in a day or two...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 29th November 2018, 07:57 PM

Some points on the Translation. As with many translation puzzles I always try to get a couple of translators to have a go at these cartouches and inlays... They are so interesting.

Firstly I have broken it down as the more difficult are in the cartouch but the lower one appears to give the makers name The Work of etc... I will try to have that done in due course...…Whereas there is Persian in the cartouche the long line of work below is from the Holy Koran and is in this case Arabic.

On the longer line of Arabic script I give an example phonetically as nasrun min allah wa fathun qareeb which means essentially ..With Gods help we will win this battle. I think that is a reasonable line of writing to have on a blade...

William Fox · 30th November 2018, 02:16 AM

Dear Ibrahiim,

Thank you for taking the time to help me with this, I am indebted to you.

So the Arabic script running along the blade says: "With Gods help we will win this battle."

The upper cartouche and lower cartouche look slightly more complex, but I await with great anticipation the views of your translator friends.

The talismanic square I find fascinating. At first I thought this was a date of some kind, but am now intrigued that it has a far more cryptic and spiritual meaning.

Please can you tell me something more about the use of such devices?

Kind regards

Will

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Some points on the Translation. As with many translation puzzles I always try to get a couple of translators to have a go at these cartouches and inlays... They are so interesting.

Firstly I have broken it down as the more difficult are in the cartouch but the lower one appears to give the makers name The Work of etc... I will try to have that done in due course...…Whereas there is Persian in the cartouche the long line of work below is from the Holy Koran and is in this case Arabic.

On the longer line of Arabic script I give an example phonetically as nasrun min allah wa fathun qareeb which means essentially ..With Gods help we will win this battle. I think that is a reasonable line of writing to have on a blade...

William Fox · 30th November 2018, 09:23 PM

Dear Ibrahiim,

Thank you so much for your kind help and interest!

I look forward to learning what the upper and lower cartouche mean, and I am also very excited to learn more about talismanic squares.

Have you got any recommendations on books published in English about the subject of Persian swords?

Kind regards

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd December 2018, 08:48 PM

Thanks for the questions.. Essentially The man with more books than you can even imagine is Jim McDougall who has what amounts to a great big mobile bookmobile full of such publications and Im sure he would be delighted to give you some ideas. I tend to focus on the Forum Library and web which is filled with excellent papers and posts on such subjects See http://auctionsimperial.com/om-the-p...f-assad-allah/ for an idea on Persian master sword makers and the apparent system of placing the makers name on high quality blades as a kind of trade mark or quality marker down the centuries … This also happened on European weapons with the name Andrea Ferrera and others …
The site owner, Lee, has a very important document on your blade with note as I recall of the Bedou or magic square format with a letter in each square and this is Talisman by nature … I tried digging it up but although I know its in there I cannot find it... Im sure it will pop up...

The reference I have given is also important as it gives another Ladder formation in a picture...on the site... The author; Oliver Pinchot, is about as expert as you can get on this weapon form and more like it.. and sets down a brilliant treatise.

Jim McDougall · 6th December 2018, 08:25 PM

Thank you very much for the kind words Ibrahiim, much appreciated. I do have an accumulation of books indeed (my wife and this poor groaning RV will attest) but of course never as many as I wish.
Will, I have been remiss in not answering sooner, but I wanted to find the titles most useful to you. Ibrahiim has good connections with translation, and Oliver Pinchot is very much the authority on these....hopefully he might show up here as he does occasionally.

His article, "The Persian Shamshir: And The Signature of Assad Allah" (Vol. 40, #1, Feb.2002, 'Arms Collecting" journal....is most valuable and amazing insight into these swords and these markings. I think Ibrahim linked the article here as the journal went out of print some time ago.

An article in that same journal (Vol.12, #1) "Dating the Arms of Islam" by Pat Donnelly is also most helpful but again, hard to find.

In my opinion one of the most helpful books is "A Study of the Eastern Sword" by Kirill Rivkin and Brian Isaac (2017) which has not only a good number of Persian shamshirs and blades represented and beautifully explained as well as having sections on Ottoman, Caucasian, Mamluk, East European, Russian and others is a must for serious collectors.

This is an absolutely beautiful shamshir, one if the most enticing I have seen in a long time, and the bedu square makes it even more exciting!

2nd December 2018, 08:48 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Thanks for the questions.. Essentially The man with more books than you can even imagine is Jim McDougall who has what amounts to a great big mobile bookmobile full of such publications and Im sure he would be delighted to give you some ideas. I tend to focus on the Forum Library and web which is filled with excellent papers and posts on such subjects See http://auctionsimperial.com/om-the-p...f-assad-allah/ for an idea on Persian master sword makers and the apparent system of placing the makers name on high quality blades as a kind of trade mark or quality marker down the centuries … This also happened on European weapons with the name Andrea Ferrera and others … The site owner, Lee, has a very important document on your blade with note as I recall of the Bedou or magic square format with a letter in each square and this is Talisman by nature … I tried digging it up but although I know its in there I cannot find it... Im sure it will pop up... The reference I have given is also important as it gives another Ladder formation in a picture...on the site... The author; Oliver Pinchot, is about as expert as you can get on this weapon form and more like it.. and sets down a brilliant treatise. Last edited by Ian; 3rd December 2018 at 07:04 AM. Reason: Correcting format of URL

28th November 2018, 09:54 PM	#1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	That is a Shamshiir and is expertly done in a dominant ladder pattern. I will have my interpreter have a look at the script although it is bound to be one of the standard famous artisan style inscriptions even though to me what is just as important is the magic square treatment ...Talismanic and great to see on this blade. I suspect the hilt has shrunk away from its metal mounting but you might be lucky in repairing that with continued treatment and oiling... I will get back to the translation in a day or two...

29th November 2018, 07:57 PM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Some points on the Translation. As with many translation puzzles I always try to get a couple of translators to have a go at these cartouches and inlays... They are so interesting. Firstly I have broken it down as the more difficult are in the cartouch but the lower one appears to give the makers name The Work of etc... I will try to have that done in due course...…Whereas there is Persian in the cartouche the long line of work below is from the Holy Koran and is in this case Arabic. On the longer line of Arabic script I give an example phonetically as nasrun min allah wa fathun qareeb which means essentially ..With Gods help we will win this battle. I think that is a reasonable line of writing to have on a blade...

30th November 2018, 09:23 PM	#4
William Fox Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Great Britain Posts: 24	Dear Ibrahiim, Thank you so much for your kind help and interest! I look forward to learning what the upper and lower cartouche mean, and I am also very excited to learn more about talismanic squares. Have you got any recommendations on books published in English about the subject of Persian swords? Kind regards

6th December 2018, 08:25 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Thank you very much for the kind words Ibrahiim, much appreciated. I do have an accumulation of books indeed (my wife and this poor groaning RV will attest) but of course never as many as I wish. Will, I have been remiss in not answering sooner, but I wanted to find the titles most useful to you. Ibrahiim has good connections with translation, and Oliver Pinchot is very much the authority on these....hopefully he might show up here as he does occasionally. His article, "The Persian Shamshir: And The Signature of Assad Allah" (Vol. 40, #1, Feb.2002, 'Arms Collecting" journal....is most valuable and amazing insight into these swords and these markings. I think Ibrahim linked the article here as the journal went out of print some time ago. An article in that same journal (Vol.12, #1) "Dating the Arms of Islam" by Pat Donnelly is also most helpful but again, hard to find. In my opinion one of the most helpful books is "A Study of the Eastern Sword" by Kirill Rivkin and Brian Isaac (2017) which has not only a good number of Persian shamshirs and blades represented and beautifully explained as well as having sections on Ottoman, Caucasian, Mamluk, East European, Russian and others is a must for serious collectors. This is an absolutely beautiful shamshir, one if the most enticing I have seen in a long time, and the bedu square makes it even more exciting!