Nomadic swords

Philip · 25th November 2018, 02:37 AM

The more we see, whether in art or "in the flesh", the more complete our knowledge will be. Why not take these various depictions as "suggestive of the possibility that..." even though the surviving material strongly indicates otherwise. Personally I put more credence in an actual example of something as opposed to a hand-drawn depiction. Especially a work of art produced within specific traditional canons (religious iconography certainly qualifies) and whose primary "big picture" focus is not the miniscule details of weapons or costume.

However, we can't pretend at this time to have seen every archaic sword that has continued to exist down to our time -- discoveries are being made all the time and I'm sure there are plenty more still buried. Let's hope that future uncovering is done within an archaeological context (as opposed to "dig and grab" by amateurs) so that we can be more precise in our attributions and chronology. We can adjust our conclusions about tunkous, or any other point as more physical evidence becomes available for our examination.

ariel · 25th November 2018, 09:19 PM

Philip,
You are a hard man to convince:-)

In my defense I can mention David Nicolle’s books, Indonesian and Indian temple statues, Persian and Indian miniatures, Khudiakov’s books on South Siberian weapons etc, etc. All of them are based on artistic depictions of various weaponry, religious included.

I fully agree that material objects trump them evidentially. On the other hand, their relative value is limited by their scarcity, preservation state and , most importantly, their attribution and dating: most of them, at least the nomadic ones, come from Russian and Ukrainian “ black diggers”. Come to think of it, even the most famous of them, the Charlemagne’s one, is of uncertain provenance. They are like a proverbial girl with a curl on her forehead:-) But when they are good, they are very good: I could not agree with you more.
We do have plenty of “upside down” examples belonging to the descendants of nomadic warriors: Persia, Turkey, Mamluks, Moghuls, But all of them are late and have only approximations of the pattern seen on Serbian frescoes.

Let’s keep our collective eyes peeled for a good one one with the “upside down” tunkou. After that we have plenty of iconographic and actual evidence to build a stronger case.

TVV · 9th June 2019, 04:05 AM

Here is another typical late Khazar period sword, 8th-9th c. AD. The double edged pointy tip is clearly visible.

Teisani · 5th March 2023, 08:06 PM

Nicely preserved sabre. https://tula.bezformata.com/listnews...vka/112552478/

Teisani · 16th January 2024, 05:26 PM

A study of the Eastern Sword - Kirill Rivkin, English. It's an old video, but worth posting I think.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eXGrTxp3Umo

9th June 2019, 04:05 AM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,666	Here is another typical late Khazar period sword, 8th-9th c. AD. The double edged pointy tip is clearly visible. Attached Images

5th March 2023, 08:06 PM	#4
Teisani Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Romania Posts: 314	Nicely preserved sabre. https://tula.bezformata.com/listnews...vka/112552478/ Attached Images

25th November 2018, 02:37 AM	#1
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	The more we see, whether in art or "in the flesh", the more complete our knowledge will be. Why not take these various depictions as "suggestive of the possibility that..." even though the surviving material strongly indicates otherwise. Personally I put more credence in an actual example of something as opposed to a hand-drawn depiction. Especially a work of art produced within specific traditional canons (religious iconography certainly qualifies) and whose primary "big picture" focus is not the miniscule details of weapons or costume. However, we can't pretend at this time to have seen every archaic sword that has continued to exist down to our time -- discoveries are being made all the time and I'm sure there are plenty more still buried. Let's hope that future uncovering is done within an archaeological context (as opposed to "dig and grab" by amateurs) so that we can be more precise in our attributions and chronology. We can adjust our conclusions about tunkous, or any other point as more physical evidence becomes available for our examination.

25th November 2018, 09:19 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Philip, You are a hard man to convince:-) In my defense I can mention David Nicolle’s books, Indonesian and Indian temple statues, Persian and Indian miniatures, Khudiakov’s books on South Siberian weapons etc, etc. All of them are based on artistic depictions of various weaponry, religious included. I fully agree that material objects trump them evidentially. On the other hand, their relative value is limited by their scarcity, preservation state and , most importantly, their attribution and dating: most of them, at least the nomadic ones, come from Russian and Ukrainian “ black diggers”. Come to think of it, even the most famous of them, the Charlemagne’s one, is of uncertain provenance. They are like a proverbial girl with a curl on her forehead:-) But when they are good, they are very good: I could not agree with you more. We do have plenty of “upside down” examples belonging to the descendants of nomadic warriors: Persia, Turkey, Mamluks, Moghuls, But all of them are late and have only approximations of the pattern seen on Serbian frescoes. Let’s keep our collective eyes peeled for a good one one with the “upside down” tunkou. After that we have plenty of iconographic and actual evidence to build a stronger case.

16th January 2024, 05:26 PM	#5
Teisani Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Romania Posts: 314	A study of the Eastern Sword - Kirill Rivkin, English. It's an old video, but worth posting I think. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eXGrTxp3Umo