Boabdil swords and Jineta

fernando · 27th October 2018, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

... Are you sure Cluny?
I was thinking the National library ...

Well ...

.

Kubur · 27th October 2018, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Well ...
.

I think it was only for an exhibition on the swords in 2011.
The sword belongs to the National library.

http://medaillesetantiques.bnf.fr/ws...2148/c33gbdnf6

This sword is called epee /espada de Luynes (name of the previous owner)

midelburgo · 29th October 2018, 12:10 AM

I believe the jineta subject is quite more complex than initially thought so the best is to pile up all the relating info.

This is an interesting start even when in Spanish:

http://www.alhambra-patronato.es/fil...sa_nazar__.pdf

There are several archeological remnants usually not mentioned as ginetas, for example this islamic sword found at Guadalajara (the gilt one).

For me, the closest relatives to the Nasrid jinetas come from the Mamluk State. And the Mamluk weapons come from Syria. And the Syrian weapons are derived from Bizantium.

Interesting pictures in an article by Yotov:
https://www.academia.edu/2328824/A_N...1th_CENTURIES_

A not anymore extant Jineta was painted by El Greco. You can compare it to the San Telmo Gineta and a Mamluk banner...

You have mamluk swords with low quillions and others where the hilt surrounds the sheath mouth. Spheric pommels seem to be a characteristic of some mamluk and bizantine swords...

We can go East to Xian an Tibet as well...

midelburgo · 29th October 2018, 12:32 AM

On the other hand you have the so called war-Jinetas, like the bottom one at Sevilla. There is a similar one at Vitoria.
There is one has a flat disc pommel, that can be found also in Mamluk swords.

Nicolle described another two war jinetas (XII century) found in Gibraltar in a Gladius article. They have sphaerical pommels.
http://gladius.revistas.csic.es/inde...rticle/view/59

And another, sort of intermediate to the later Nasrid swords was found in Sanguesa (Navarra). Compare it to the San Telmo and Greco example.

Extra record: Is this a Jineta?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5h1k8-SzaI

And finally another arqueological find in Spain of unknown thereabouts.

Jim McDougall · 29th October 2018, 05:27 AM

Philip, I was remiss in not responding to your post #7 and thank you for mentioning the Furisiyya volume which I do have, and also for noting the work , "Al Andalus: The Art of Islamic Spain" Met, Mus. of Art, 1997, which is now on my 'get' list too.

Well observed on the blades.....it would be good to compare the blades on the swords of Topkapi and the examples in Spain. Yucel notes that while it is certain these swords in Istanbul with distinguished provenance along with the rest have been remounted c. 1517 , many of the blades may be of the antiquity noted and to the attribution claimed.

Keeping to the key topic here, the form and likely development of the Hispano-Moresque sword forms with regard to the hilts, it seems it was questioned at some point (I believe Gonzalo) how the notion of possible European infuence was arrived at. Also, how early was the downward turned quillon present in the Iberian/ Al Andalusian swords?

In Dr, David Nicolle, "Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era 1050-1350" (1988, p.158) , it is noted;

"... a new type of sword and its associated tactics are believed to have been introduced to the Iberian Peninsula by Berber mercenaries and conquerors in the 11th and 12th centuries perhaps as a precursor to , or an early version of the JINETE light cavalry tactics clearly introduced from North Africa in the 13th-14th c.
Light cavalry combat a la' jinete was again associated with what west Europeans came to know as the Italian grip, and according to some scholars, with curved quillons".

in the article previously cited by Midelburgo, Dr. Nicolle again addresses the curved quillon conundrum in "Two Swords from the Foundation of Gibraltar" (Gladius XXII, 2002, pp 147-200);
Where two swords of 12th c. were found in a cave on Gibraltar in which one had somewhat downturned quillons, the other with straight.

While Yucel (2001, p.54) has asserted that virtually nothing is known about the form and nature of Umayyad and Abbasid hilts or the period from 8th c. to the Mamluk period. However it seems in various other works there have been presumptions that these hilts may have been guardless except for a kind of cuff extending over the blade forte.

Nicolle (2002, op. cit. #33) illustrates a hilt of this general form as Mamluk or Maghribi (North African broadly) 12th-14th c.

It would seem that both downturn quillons and straight existed contemporarily in Al Andalusian Spain in c. 12th century, and the 'cuffed' type hilt feature existed possibly from as early as Umayyad North Africa. Later the style probably influenced hilts in degree in the Maghrib and Mamluk spheres travelling into Al Andalusian Spain sometime after 12th c.

Perhaps the cuffed style incorporated downturned quillons and evolved into the elaborately decorated Nasrid (Boabdil/Jineta) style which were intended for prominant if not regal figures as reflective of stature.

I do not believe these elaborately decorated and structured hilts were prevalent overall in Spain, but were selectively unique and that most swords in use were of the more commonly seen quillon types which evolved into the crab claw types later.

midelburgo · 29th October 2018, 12:24 PM

Blades from Nasrid kingdom seem to be mostly imported from the Christian side. Specially Toledo, but also Germany. The little dog mark is by Julian del Rey, not Passau, a converted Muslim swordsmith working for Fernando of Aragon.

http://gladius.revistas.csic.es/inde...ticle/view/203

Kubur · 29th October 2018, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midelburgo

Blades from Nasrid kingdom seem to be mostly imported from the Christian side. Specially Toledo, but also Germany. The little dog mark is by Julian del Rey, not Passau, a converted Muslim swordsmith working for Fernando of Aragon.

http://gladius.revistas.csic.es/inde...ticle/view/203

Fantastic thank you! Excellent article.
Question: so this blade is Spanish and from the 16th c but the sword / hilt is from the 15th c?
Sorry for my simple question...

midelburgo · 29th October 2018, 02:28 PM

I understand that Julian del Rey was a Granada Muslim up to 1478, making swords there, then became a Christian, changed name, and made blades in Toledo and Zaragoza afterward. Two of the jinetas have its perrillo (little dog) mark, those at Paris and another that used to be at the Royal Armoury in Turin (at least until 1840). It is possible that these blades were made in Toledo and mounted in Granada before the war started in 1482. Maybe it is hard to believe Muslims would have allowed an animal representation on their swords, but there you have the lions fountain at Alhambra.

The "perrillo" swords are a common find in Spanish XVIth century literature, now there are difficulties in making clear, which ones were made by Julian del Rey, its successors and which are imports from Passau.

Another of the jineta blades is marked with a roman alphabet S, what seems unlikely if made in an Islamic country.

29th October 2018, 12:32 AM	#4
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 264	On the other hand you have the so called war-Jinetas, like the bottom one at Sevilla. There is a similar one at Vitoria. There is one has a flat disc pommel, that can be found also in Mamluk swords. Nicolle described another two war jinetas (XII century) found in Gibraltar in a Gladius article. They have sphaerical pommels. http://gladius.revistas.csic.es/inde...rticle/view/59 And another, sort of intermediate to the later Nasrid swords was found in Sanguesa (Navarra). Compare it to the San Telmo and Greco example. Extra record: Is this a Jineta? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5h1k8-SzaI And finally another arqueological find in Spain of unknown thereabouts. Attached Images Last edited by midelburgo; 29th October 2018 at 01:56 AM.

29th October 2018, 12:10 AM	#3
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 264	I believe the jineta subject is quite more complex than initially thought so the best is to pile up all the relating info. This is an interesting start even when in Spanish: http://www.alhambra-patronato.es/fil...sa_nazar__.pdf There are several archeological remnants usually not mentioned as ginetas, for example this islamic sword found at Guadalajara (the gilt one). For me, the closest relatives to the Nasrid jinetas come from the Mamluk State. And the Mamluk weapons come from Syria. And the Syrian weapons are derived from Bizantium. Interesting pictures in an article by Yotov: https://www.academia.edu/2328824/A_N...1th_CENTURIES_ A not anymore extant Jineta was painted by El Greco. You can compare it to the San Telmo Gineta and a Mamluk banner... You have mamluk swords with low quillions and others where the hilt surrounds the sheath mouth. Spheric pommels seem to be a characteristic of some mamluk and bizantine swords... We can go East to Xian an Tibet as well... Attached Images Last edited by midelburgo; 29th October 2018 at 01:04 AM.

29th October 2018, 05:27 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Philip, I was remiss in not responding to your post #7 and thank you for mentioning the Furisiyya volume which I do have, and also for noting the work , "Al Andalus: The Art of Islamic Spain" Met, Mus. of Art, 1997, which is now on my 'get' list too. Well observed on the blades.....it would be good to compare the blades on the swords of Topkapi and the examples in Spain. Yucel notes that while it is certain these swords in Istanbul with distinguished provenance along with the rest have been remounted c. 1517 , many of the blades may be of the antiquity noted and to the attribution claimed. Keeping to the key topic here, the form and likely development of the Hispano-Moresque sword forms with regard to the hilts, it seems it was questioned at some point (I believe Gonzalo) how the notion of possible European infuence was arrived at. Also, how early was the downward turned quillon present in the Iberian/ Al Andalusian swords? In Dr, David Nicolle, "Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era 1050-1350" (1988, p.158) , it is noted; "... a new type of sword and its associated tactics are believed to have been introduced to the Iberian Peninsula by Berber mercenaries and conquerors in the 11th and 12th centuries perhaps as a precursor to , or an early version of the JINETE light cavalry tactics clearly introduced from North Africa in the 13th-14th c. Light cavalry combat a la' jinete was again associated with what west Europeans came to know as the Italian grip, and according to some scholars, with curved quillons". in the article previously cited by Midelburgo, Dr. Nicolle again addresses the curved quillon conundrum in "Two Swords from the Foundation of Gibraltar" (Gladius XXII, 2002, pp 147-200); Where two swords of 12th c. were found in a cave on Gibraltar in which one had somewhat downturned quillons, the other with straight. While Yucel (2001, p.54) has asserted that virtually nothing is known about the form and nature of Umayyad and Abbasid hilts or the period from 8th c. to the Mamluk period. However it seems in various other works there have been presumptions that these hilts may have been guardless except for a kind of cuff extending over the blade forte. Nicolle (2002, op. cit. #33) illustrates a hilt of this general form as Mamluk or Maghribi (North African broadly) 12th-14th c. It would seem that both downturn quillons and straight existed contemporarily in Al Andalusian Spain in c. 12th century, and the 'cuffed' type hilt feature existed possibly from as early as Umayyad North Africa. Later the style probably influenced hilts in degree in the Maghrib and Mamluk spheres travelling into Al Andalusian Spain sometime after 12th c. Perhaps the cuffed style incorporated downturned quillons and evolved into the elaborately decorated Nasrid (Boabdil/Jineta) style which were intended for prominant if not regal figures as reflective of stature. I do not believe these elaborately decorated and structured hilts were prevalent overall in Spain, but were selectively unique and that most swords in use were of the more commonly seen quillon types which evolved into the crab claw types later.

29th October 2018, 12:24 PM	#6
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 264	Blades from Nasrid kingdom seem to be mostly imported from the Christian side. Specially Toledo, but also Germany. The little dog mark is by Julian del Rey, not Passau, a converted Muslim swordsmith working for Fernando of Aragon. http://gladius.revistas.csic.es/inde...ticle/view/203

29th October 2018, 02:28 PM	#8
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 264	I understand that Julian del Rey was a Granada Muslim up to 1478, making swords there, then became a Christian, changed name, and made blades in Toledo and Zaragoza afterward. Two of the jinetas have its perrillo (little dog) mark, those at Paris and another that used to be at the Royal Armoury in Turin (at least until 1840). It is possible that these blades were made in Toledo and mounted in Granada before the war started in 1482. Maybe it is hard to believe Muslims would have allowed an animal representation on their swords, but there you have the lions fountain at Alhambra. The "perrillo" swords are a common find in Spanish XVIth century literature, now there are difficulties in making clear, which ones were made by Julian del Rey, its successors and which are imports from Passau. Another of the jineta blades is marked with a roman alphabet S, what seems unlikely if made in an Islamic country.