giant tenegre

kino · 19th October 2018, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

As far as trade with India or a direct Indian influence on Moro culture, there is again little evidence for that. India is some distance from the southern Philippines.

Ian

Take a look at this,

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=Chevron

The probability of a wootz blade existing in the Philippines is low but I would never say never. It wasnt too long ago that some folks were saying that a twist core Barung blade didn't exist but we were pleasantly proven wrong.

Ian · 19th October 2018, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kino

Take a look at this,

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=Chevron

The probability of a wootz blade existing in the Philippines is low but I would never say never. It wasnt too long ago that some folks were saying that a twist core Barung blade didn't exist but we were pleasantly proven wrong.

Hi kino:

Thanks for the link to your chevron-bladed kris. As noted by several commenters in that thread it is a very unusual kris and possibly not of Moro origin--perhaps Malay. The largest extant Indian population in SE Asia is in Singapore and it is possible that some elements of Indian metal working existed there in the 19th C. Malaya and Singapore were part of the British Empire at that time, as well as India.

As I was careful to state earlier in this thread, I'm open to the possibility of wootz being used to make a Moro edged weapon, but such a finding would be very rare. Just as rare, say, as a chevron-bladed kris of which there has been one example shown on this forum and none of our experienced commenters have seen another.

Ian.

Ian · 20th October 2018, 03:22 PM

Hello xasterix:

Welcome to the Forum and thanks for the reminder that we are dealing with a Panay tenegre. I had not forgotten. The natives of Panay are not noted for their extensive sea traveling and trade with foreigners, although Chinese merchants and other Filipino groups have been active in that area. It is probably one of the least likely places in the Philippines to have found a blade made of wootz. For wootz to arrive there would require trade with a foreigner or possibly in the form of a gift.

The Moro, especially those of the Sulu Archipelago, on the other hand were extensive seafarers and noted pirates of the South China Sea. They traded with N. Borneo, Brunei, Malaysia, China, etc. and were much more likely to come in contact with foreign goods via those sources. The Moro are also Muslims and wootz is associated with other Muslim groups, so a further connection might occur through the commonality of religion and culture. Whatever the possible pathway of wootz into the Philippines, it is much more likely that it would pass through Moro hands than come directly to a native of Panay. That is why I spoke of a Moro influence in connection with this sword. The fact that we see very few, if any, examples of wootz in Moro blades makes this tenegre all the more difficult to understand (if the steel is indeed wootz).

If Roland is correct, it is baffling how this sword came about.

Ian.

kino · 20th October 2018, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi kino:

As noted by several commenters in that thread it is a very unusual kris and possibly not of Moro origin--perhaps Malay.

There’s only one mention of “Malay”, in the thread of the chevron patterned kris and it is in reference to the hilt cup not the blade

ariel · 20th October 2018, 06:48 PM

Re: Kino's example of chevron Moro blade.

According to Elgood , chevron blades were " invented" in India in late 19th century by a single smith from Udaipur, named Gopilal and this tradition has been continued by his family till now. They said that most of the existing blades are contemporary and that the only other place that made them was a town of Bhinder. Elgood even observed actual making of such a blade ( R. Elgood " Arms and Armour at the Jaipur court" , p.146-147).

Seems to me that the attribution of the blade to late 19th - 20 century might be correct.
In any case, some master smith there picked up the newest Indian fashion early on and did a good job.

RSWORD · 20th October 2018, 09:35 PM

No comment on the possibility if a wootz blade could have been made or imported into the Philippines. However, I will focus strictly on the blade in question. From what I can see in the pictures this is not wootz. The pattern exhibited does not follow what you typically see in wootz. Certainly a far cry from the example in the book. Yes, wootz can have the pattern distorted at the edge from hammering but it still exhibits the flowing lines as seen on the balance of the blade. I think in this Panay blade what you see is a fine grain structure not unlike what you would see in Japanese hada. This blade has been folded many times and well hammered to make an almost crystalline pattern. I have seen this before in Filipino blades. Remember, not all patterned blades are wootz. My vote is for a blade that has many layers finely hammered creating a Japanese hada affect.

ShazamsLaw · 24th October 2018, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

No comment on the possibility if a wootz blade could have been made or imported into the Philippines. However, I will focus strictly on the blade in question. From what I can see in the pictures this is not wootz. The pattern exhibited does not follow what you typically see in wootz. Certainly a far cry from the example in the book. Yes, wootz can have the pattern distorted at the edge from hammering but it still exhibits the flowing lines as seen on the balance of the blade. I think in this Panay blade what you see is a fine grain structure not unlike what you would see in Japanese hada. This blade has been folded many times and well hammered to make an almost crystalline pattern. I have seen this before in Filipino blades. Remember, not all patterned blades are wootz. My vote is for a blade that has many layers finely hammered creating a Japanese hada affect.

I don't recall Visayan blades having that type of quality steel. More or less they mostly worked with iron "as breakable as glass" which they imported from china.

kino · 3rd November 2018, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Re: Kino's example of chevron Moro blade.

According to Elgood , chevron blades were " invented" in India in late 19th century by a single smith from Udaipur, named Gopilal and this tradition has been continued by his family till now. They said that most of the existing blades are contemporary and that the only other place that made them was a town of Bhinder. Elgood even observed actual making of such a blade ( R. Elgood " Arms and Armour at the Jaipur court" , p.146-147).

Seems to me that the attribution of the blade to late 19th - 20 century might be correct.
In any case, some master smith there picked up the newest Indian fashion early on and did a good job.

Thank you Ariel for sharing this anecdote.

20th October 2018, 06:48 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Re: Kino's example of chevron Moro blade. According to Elgood , chevron blades were " invented" in India in late 19th century by a single smith from Udaipur, named Gopilal and this tradition has been continued by his family till now. They said that most of the existing blades are contemporary and that the only other place that made them was a town of Bhinder. Elgood even observed actual making of such a blade ( R. Elgood " Arms and Armour at the Jaipur court" , p.146-147). Seems to me that the attribution of the blade to late 19th - 20 century might be correct. In any case, some master smith there picked up the newest Indian fashion early on and did a good job. Last edited by ariel; 20th October 2018 at 10:20 PM.

20th October 2018, 03:22 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Hello xasterix: Welcome to the Forum and thanks for the reminder that we are dealing with a Panay tenegre. I had not forgotten. The natives of Panay are not noted for their extensive sea traveling and trade with foreigners, although Chinese merchants and other Filipino groups have been active in that area. It is probably one of the least likely places in the Philippines to have found a blade made of wootz. For wootz to arrive there would require trade with a foreigner or possibly in the form of a gift. The Moro, especially those of the Sulu Archipelago, on the other hand were extensive seafarers and noted pirates of the South China Sea. They traded with N. Borneo, Brunei, Malaysia, China, etc. and were much more likely to come in contact with foreign goods via those sources. The Moro are also Muslims and wootz is associated with other Muslim groups, so a further connection might occur through the commonality of religion and culture. Whatever the possible pathway of wootz into the Philippines, it is much more likely that it would pass through Moro hands than come directly to a native of Panay. That is why I spoke of a Moro influence in connection with this sword. The fact that we see very few, if any, examples of wootz in Moro blades makes this tenegre all the more difficult to understand (if the steel is indeed wootz). If Roland is correct, it is baffling how this sword came about. Ian.

20th October 2018, 09:35 PM	#6
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	No comment on the possibility if a wootz blade could have been made or imported into the Philippines. However, I will focus strictly on the blade in question. From what I can see in the pictures this is not wootz. The pattern exhibited does not follow what you typically see in wootz. Certainly a far cry from the example in the book. Yes, wootz can have the pattern distorted at the edge from hammering but it still exhibits the flowing lines as seen on the balance of the blade. I think in this Panay blade what you see is a fine grain structure not unlike what you would see in Japanese hada. This blade has been folded many times and well hammered to make an almost crystalline pattern. I have seen this before in Filipino blades. Remember, not all patterned blades are wootz. My vote is for a blade that has many layers finely hammered creating a Japanese hada affect.