Pedang with unusual point

[kai]

Hello Alan,

Thanks for your thoughts and the interesting remarks!

I do see the points you raised. Yet I am not convinced that this blade really is Jawa and, thus, out of pakem.

IMHO, it might rather be Sunda and examples with similar rough base features are known. Moreover, the somewhat thin base of the blade and the rather homogeneous material may point in this direction, too. Also the hilt style would suit this designation albeit being widely distributed across the archipelago.

Depending on the size and configuration of the tang (and originating culture), I have seen a wide array of hilt attachments in what appeared to be original configurations. In this chopping blade, the mating of the upper part of the tang/base seems more important than the lower ricasso area; what you describe is likely to reduce vibrations though. Actually, this blade feels solid when tapped - I haven’t made test cuts though.

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Kai, this blade form, and with kembang kacang , is a known Javanese form. I do not know it as a Sundanese form. However, not being there at the time, I do not know where it was actually made. In the final analysis, it could have been made anywhere, but as a known Javanese form, my inclination is to place it as Javanese. If I place it as Javanese, then I appraise it as Javanese.

The tang will be found to be a stick tang, there can be no doubt of this. I have seen and handled more pedangs of the sabet form than I can remember. Where the blade has been in place for a long time, the base of the blade will be flush to the base of the hilt, or it will very slightly penetrate the base of the hilt. This is not design practice that is unique to Javanese weaponry, it is to be found as a universal feature throughout time and place. Ideally a slashing or chopping blade should have a full tang, but where technical limitations in manufacture or economics dictate a stick tang, then the base of the blade must be supported by the hilt. This is weapons design 101.

Still, we all have our own opinions, I have mine, you have yours, I won't debate the subject.

[A. G. Maisey]

I've been waiting for somebody to jump in and point out the obvious, but it looks like either everybody is asleep, or there is not much interest in this pedang. Pity, because I think it is quite interesting, not for the hooked point, which really doesn't grab my interest much, but for the blade form with kembang kacang.

In my previous post I appraised this as Javanese, and it is a known Javanese form.

Kai thinks it could be Sundanese, I do not know the blade form as Sundanese, I've never seen any examples of this blade form that could be inarguably given as Sundanese, but who knows, it might be Sundanese, as I have said I do not want to debate the subject, simply because we cannot know where it was made.

But I really did expect somebody to give the obvious alternative, and that is South Sumatera. Both the blade form and the hilt style are known in South Sumatera.

Since nobody else has given this obvious alternative, I'll give it myself.

Anybody know any other reasonable alternatives?

[Sajen]

Hello Roland and all other contributors,

no Alan, there is interest like the visits show. I think that Rolands very specific queries could be the reason that not so much people contributed until now.

To the sword, the first I have to say is that Roland did an amazing job by restoring the blade, it was in a more as sad condition.

The idea from Alan that the handle could be not the first one is interesting, while I have seen few similar blades but not one with this handle style when I remember correct. Pedang blades with kembang kacang I know from Java, Sunda and Sumatra, see also this old thread from Charles where he has shown a great variety from pedangs of the Indonesian Archipelago: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=pedang, see special example #14 which is very similar in blade shape to the one in question. This one from Charles seems from Sumatra.
When the handle is indeed not the first one it will be nearby that Roland and we all never will know the exact origin, sadly!

Roland, not all collectors restore their blades in such high quality so it may be difficult to find pictures of similar hardened Indonesian pedang blades.
But Alan give a good insight about this hardening.

Regards,
Detlef

[Athanase]

Indeed, Sumatra seemed so obvious to me that I thought it had already been said.
I have Sumatran's pedang with a close shape , but without the hook tip and with a much more basic handle.

[A. G. Maisey]

Detlef, I also like Roland's approach to restoration of this --- and I seem to recall, other --- SE Asian blades. It is a purely European approach, not the approach that we would expect to see from SE Asia itself.

Certainly in Indonesia, and I believe in some other SE Asian countries, the way that this blade would have restored would have been to dismount it, regularise the surface and profile and then clean with a mild acid. The exception to this would have been Bali, where the approach would have been very similar to the approach that Roland used.

There are pros and cons for each method, and my personal opinion is that in most cases I would prefer to use the European approach, however I seldom do use this approach simply because it is currently culturally incorrect.

I have said "--- currently culturally incorrect." I have used the word "current" because I have believed for a very long time, that prior to the decline and fall of the old Hindu-Buddhist Javanese political entities, Javanese blades would have been been cleaned in the way that Balinese blades are still traditionally cleaned, and that is by polishing with wet sand and powdered limestone. I am of the opinion that the acid cleaning of blades was introduced by Islam as a part of the strategy to remove the old Javanese socio-religious associations with the keris in particular, and all tosan aji in a broader sense.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Detlef, I also like Roland's approach to restoration of this --- and I seem to recall, other --- SE Asian blades. It is a purely European approach, not the approach that we would expect to see from SE Asia itself.

Certainly in Indonesia, and I believe in some other SE Asian countries, the way that this blade would have restored would have been to dismount it, regularise the surface and profile and then clean with a mild acid. The exception to this would have been Bali, where the approach would have been very similar to the approach that Roland used.

There are pros and cons for each method, and my personal opinion is that in most cases I would prefer to use the European approach, however I seldom do use this approach simply because it is currently culturally incorrect.

I have said "--- currently culturally incorrect." I have used the word "current" because I have believed for a very long time, that prior to the decline and fall of the old Hindu-Buddhist Javanese political entities, Javanese blades would have been been cleaned in the way that Balinese blades are still traditionally cleaned, and that is by polishing with wet sand and powdered limestone. I am of the opinion that the acid cleaning of blades was introduced by Islam as a part of the strategy to remove the old Javanese socio-religious associations with the keris in particular, and all tosan aji in a broader sense.

Thank you Alan. Very interesting observation.

[satsujinken]

clearly a lambe gajah sword, from Sumatra and most probably from Lampung but the style of the handle is somewhat closer to Palembang style

not pedang sabet or alameng, this type is evolved in Sumatra and the "kembang kacang" is called "elephant's trunk and mouth" hence the name "lambe gajah" - elephant's mouth

regards
Donny