Early shibriyas revisited

BANDOOK · 25th September 2018, 11:37 AM

That's a beautiful primitive example Kubur,lovely
cheers
Rajesh

Kubur · 25th September 2018, 06:21 PM

old shibriya

motan · 25th September 2018, 08:39 PM

Hi Kubur,
Thanks for keeping this thread going with interesting examples. The first one is a piece I considered buying for a long time, but let it go eventually. I believe it is an early form of the example in my picture, but it is more interesting because of the peculiar decorations. I know of a similar one found "in situ" in Jubata al Khashab, a village in the demilitarized zone of Syria/Golan. Unfortunately, I can not find the relevant thread. It is debatable if it should be considered a shibriya.
The last one is I believe it is some kind of shibriya and it shows many signs of early examples. However, it has a mixture of influences I have not seen before. Like the majority of older examples, it does not have the classical recurve blade shape identified with shibriyas. The little bulges on the upper part of the scabbard and on the "neck band" of the hilt can be found in several examples in this thread, as well as the small triangles and other geometric patterns. The disk and ring on the pommel are typical to almost all early shibriyas, and so is the decorated "neck band". The band with little enameled (?) depressions on the scabbard is however an unmistakable Iraqi element. Similar pattern, but with set turquoise stones is shown in several Iraqi daggers in this thread. So, a mix of styles that fits the Eastern fringes of the Syrian desert.
I once speculated that on a continuum of styles across the Syrian desert, but recently, I have seen several examples that have a Iraqi/Syrian/Jordanian/Palestinian/Saudi Arabian mixture of traits. I am trying to study them with help of A.Alnakkas from this forum who has many examples. To be continued, as this post is long enough already.

Kubur · 25th September 2018, 10:05 PM

Hi Motan

I cannot agree more!
I also agree with what you wrote previously:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=212635
al nakkas also
Its the size that define a shibriya, not the shape of the blade.
in my view, all shibriyas come from curved daggers.
YES
For mine, are you sure that is Iraqi? I would say Hejazi influences, a bit dhariaish type with the sheat...

A.alnakkas · 26th September 2018, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Motan

I cannot agree more!
I also agree with what you wrote previously:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=212635
al nakkas also
Its the size that define a shibriya, not the shape of the blade.
in my view, all shibriyas come from curved daggers.
YES
For mine, are you sure that is Iraqi? I would say Hejazi influences, a bit dhariaish type with the sheat...

To be honest, I am not quite sure whether the term shibr which is the source of the term shibriya is a solid definition for the item. I have shibriyas way larger than the shibr unit.

As for your shibriya, nice example! I overslept that day :-) as for features, The line of sockets is a known feature in Iraqi items, though that does not mean the item is Iraqi. It is definitely not Hejazi and the decorative methods and style are common. The only thing different is the line of sockets.

motan · 26th September 2018, 12:15 PM

Hi my friends,
I agree with both of you, but there are still so many things unknown to us about the origins of the shibriya.
Kubur, if I had to guess where your shibriya was made, I would say southern Syria, about the same area as the other one you posted. This is based on one feature: the band on the scabbard just above the row of sockets, made for the rings where a baldric was attached. Almost all shibriyas have a simple belt loop on the back of the scabbard (Dharias too). This band is common in Majdalis and in Lebanese daggers (and other Ottoman/Caucasian daggers), although a baldric was rarely used and they were usually tucked behind the belt.

25th September 2018, 06:21 PM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	old shibriya Attached Images

25th September 2018, 08:39 PM	#3
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Kubur, Thanks for keeping this thread going with interesting examples. The first one is a piece I considered buying for a long time, but let it go eventually. I believe it is an early form of the example in my picture, but it is more interesting because of the peculiar decorations. I know of a similar one found "in situ" in Jubata al Khashab, a village in the demilitarized zone of Syria/Golan. Unfortunately, I can not find the relevant thread. It is debatable if it should be considered a shibriya. The last one is I believe it is some kind of shibriya and it shows many signs of early examples. However, it has a mixture of influences I have not seen before. Like the majority of older examples, it does not have the classical recurve blade shape identified with shibriyas. The little bulges on the upper part of the scabbard and on the "neck band" of the hilt can be found in several examples in this thread, as well as the small triangles and other geometric patterns. The disk and ring on the pommel are typical to almost all early shibriyas, and so is the decorated "neck band". The band with little enameled (?) depressions on the scabbard is however an unmistakable Iraqi element. Similar pattern, but with set turquoise stones is shown in several Iraqi daggers in this thread. So, a mix of styles that fits the Eastern fringes of the Syrian desert. I once speculated that on a continuum of styles across the Syrian desert, but recently, I have seen several examples that have a Iraqi/Syrian/Jordanian/Palestinian/Saudi Arabian mixture of traits. I am trying to study them with help of A.Alnakkas from this forum who has many examples. To be continued, as this post is long enough already. Attached Images

25th September 2018, 11:37 AM	#1
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	That's a beautiful primitive example Kubur,lovely cheers Rajesh

25th September 2018, 10:05 PM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Motan I cannot agree more! I also agree with what you wrote previously: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=212635 al nakkas also Its the size that define a shibriya, not the shape of the blade. in my view, all shibriyas come from curved daggers. YES For mine, are you sure that is Iraqi? I would say Hejazi influences, a bit dhariaish type with the sheat...

26th September 2018, 12:15 PM	#6
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi my friends, I agree with both of you, but there are still so many things unknown to us about the origins of the shibriya. Kubur, if I had to guess where your shibriya was made, I would say southern Syria, about the same area as the other one you posted. This is based on one feature: the band on the scabbard just above the row of sockets, made for the rings where a baldric was attached. Almost all shibriyas have a simple belt loop on the back of the scabbard (Dharias too). This band is common in Majdalis and in Lebanese daggers (and other Ottoman/Caucasian daggers), although a baldric was rarely used and they were usually tucked behind the belt.