Newbie in need of ID help...

Ian · 21st September 2018, 08:00 PM

Oliver raises a very good point. There are recently made Indian knives flooding the market, many coming from Rajastan, that are hard to distinguish from older knives with wootz blades. These copies are getting better and the appearance of the blades is getting closer to traditional wootz.

I would agree with those who point to a recent hilt and scabbard, and recent gold work on the blade. The question then becomes, Is this an old blade?

As I look at the blade, I see inconsistencies in the pattern that could indicate the blade is not traditional wootz. In particular, towards the tip, there are "blank areas" in the pattern. This suggests to me that Oliver is indeed correct, and the ensemble is recently made, most likely from northern India.

Ian.

sfenoid13 · 13th October 2018, 07:43 AM

Recent production from India.

mariusgmioc · 13th October 2018, 10:12 AM

Nothing "balkan" in this kard.

100% Indian, of recent production. Albeit of high quality showing crystalline wootz pattern.

ariel · 13th October 2018, 02:15 PM

I join: modern Indian work thru and thru.
They make wootz ingots in quantities and would have no problem forging one into a blade.
But the devil is in the details: they do not know how to forge it right and that is the reason for a pitiful and patchy pattern. The rest is obviously virginally fresh.

It is obviously well above their mass-produced daggers, but it ain’t no antique.

ALEX · 13th October 2018, 02:36 PM

[QUOTE=They make wootz ingots in quantities and would have no problem forging one into a blade.[/QUOTE]

Ariel,
I do not think this is the case nor real wootz ingots are being made

The subject blade is likely antique wootz blade, heavily grinded from larger blade, likely tulwar, into smaller one, which resulted in discoloration and losses of pattern. The modern "wootz" daggers made in India that look like wootz are not real wootz, just like "wootz" ingots they sell on eBay.

mariusgmioc · 14th October 2018, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Ariel,
I do not think this is the case nor real wootz ingots are being made

The subject blade is likely antique wootz blade, heavily grinded from larger blade, likely tulwar, into smaller one, which resulted in discoloration and losses of pattern. The modern "wootz" daggers made in India that look like wootz are not real wootz, just like "wootz" ingots they sell on eBay.

It is possible but in my oppinion unlikely.

Antique wootz, reworked, will retain the watering pattern, or loose it but will not transform into crystalline wootz. And from what I can discern in the photos, the blade displays some crystalline wootz patterns.

After looking more at the photos, I believe I can discern some watering pattern...

If this is the case, then it is a blade reworked and the partial loss of pattern may be due to reheating locally the blade.

21st September 2018, 08:00 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,398	Oliver raises a very good point. There are recently made Indian knives flooding the market, many coming from Rajastan, that are hard to distinguish from older knives with wootz blades. These copies are getting better and the appearance of the blades is getting closer to traditional wootz. I would agree with those who point to a recent hilt and scabbard, and recent gold work on the blade. The question then becomes, Is this an old blade? As I look at the blade, I see inconsistencies in the pattern that could indicate the blade is not traditional wootz. In particular, towards the tip, there are "blank areas" in the pattern. This suggests to me that Oliver is indeed correct, and the ensemble is recently made, most likely from northern India. Ian.

13th October 2018, 07:43 AM	#2
sfenoid13 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 134	Recent production from India.

13th October 2018, 10:12 AM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Nothing "balkan" in this kard. 100% Indian, of recent production. Albeit of high quality showing crystalline wootz pattern.

13th October 2018, 02:15 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I join: modern Indian work thru and thru. They make wootz ingots in quantities and would have no problem forging one into a blade. But the devil is in the details: they do not know how to forge it right and that is the reason for a pitiful and patchy pattern. The rest is obviously virginally fresh. It is obviously well above their mass-produced daggers, but it ain’t no antique.

13th October 2018, 02:36 PM	#5
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	[QUOTE=They make wootz ingots in quantities and would have no problem forging one into a blade.[/QUOTE] Ariel, I do not think this is the case nor real wootz ingots are being made The subject blade is likely antique wootz blade, heavily grinded from larger blade, likely tulwar, into smaller one, which resulted in discoloration and losses of pattern. The modern "wootz" daggers made in India that look like wootz are not real wootz, just like "wootz" ingots they sell on eBay.