giant tenegre

[Rafngard]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

My sword saw very intense combat and the warrior who owned it, was surely a famous one. It took a man like Dan Inosanto to control this sword.

A side comment to the Tenegre (which is, btw, amazing).

I study Filipino martial arts and I've had the pleasure of attending Guro Dan Inosanto's seminars a few times; he comes to my school twice a year. The man is amazing. Though in his 80s, he often moves faster than my eyes can see.

That said, he is a rather short and slender man. While I have no doubt he could something like this, he might still opt for something smaller. Or he might not. Who knows.

Either way, I hope I'm on his side ;-)

Have fun,
Leif

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by Rafngard

A side comment to the Tenegre (which is, btw, amazing).

I study Filipino martial arts and I've had the pleasure of attending Guro Dan Inosanto's seminars a few times; he comes to my school twice a year. The man is amazing. Though in his 80s, he often moves faster than my eyes can see.

That said, he is a rather short and slender man. While I have no doubt he could something like this, he might still opt for something smaller. Or he might not. Who knows.

Either way, I hope I'm on his side ;-)

Have fun,
Leif

I would give a lot for a seminar with Mr. Inosanto. Because of him and his videos on Youtube I learned Escrima with two sticks together.

The backside of the Tenegre is done. I made the first staining a few minutes ago. And my strange feeling was right. I hardly can believe it and if i am not totaly wrong, the blade is made of a massive piece of 1kg wootz! A very fine wootz. I took the picture with my cellphone, under precariuos light conditions, in reality it is much more beautiful.

Roland

[Ian]

Dear Roland:

Your observation that this may be a wootz blade is very interesting, but I think it is unlikely. I would like to see clearer pictures of the pattern, which in places appears (to my eyes) to show lamination. There are (almost) no examples of wootz being used among the Muslim groups of the southern Philippines, and those one or two that have been reported may not have been true wootz. There is no clear evidence that wootz was actually made in the Philippines, or the wider Malay world as far as I know.

Is it possible that you are looking at another form of crucible steel with dendritic features, such as a piece of Spanish steel that has been repurposed? The technical details of wootz are outside my field, so I shall defer to those with more expertise.

I will say, however, that the historical evidence of Philippine edged weapons made from wootz is scant to non-existent. Laminated blades are the norm, with later monosteel.

Regards,

Ian.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by Ian

I will say, however, that the historical evidence of Philippine edged weapons made from wootz is scant to non-existent. Laminated blades are the norm, with later monosteel.

Regards,

Ian.

Hello Ian,

what looks like laminations is a result of intense hammering of the cutting edge and differential hardening. I have no further pictures of the Tenegre right now but i have a picture which shows similar lines on a Persian Khorasani blade. More about wootz here: https://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/am...tr/ib_5_1.html
I think the raw-material was made and prepared (hammering, rolling) in India.
More pictures of the Tenegre, when i can demonstrate it without doubt, that we see wootz.

Roland

[CCUAL]

Originally Posted by Ian

Dear Roland:

Your observation that this may be a wootz blade is very interesting, but I think it is unlikely. I would like to see clearer pictures of the pattern, which in places appears (to my eyes) to show lamination. There are (almost) no examples of wootz being used among the Muslim groups of the southern Philippines, and those one or two that have been reported may not have been true wootz. There is no clear evidence that wootz was actually made in the Philippines, or the wider Malay world as far as I know.

Is it possible that you are looking at another form of crucible steel with dendritic features, such as a piece of Spanish steel that has been repurposed? The technical details of wootz are outside my field, so I shall defer to those with more expertise.

I will say, however, that the historical evidence of Philippine edged weapons made from wootz is scant to non-existent. Laminated blades are the norm, with later monosteel.

Regards,

Ian.

Again, that doesn't mean that you have not seen though out your old collecting years it does not exist. India for example are very fun of creating this steel, and their just a neighboring country of PI. In fact their are bunch of them there now practicing 5-6.

Who knows, may be when they came to PI's southern part specially to teach Mohammedanism, what made you think that they did not bring any of their good stuff? wootz steel in particular? You need to scout the entire PI which for sure you have not done - then and now.., and then, you can make this conclusive statements like you just did.

large headed nails:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...highlight=moro

[Ian]

CCUAL:

I agree with much of what you have said, although I do stand by my statement that a wootz blade on a Moro weapon would be exceedingly rare. Moro weapons are often etched, so such a pattern would be unlikely to escape our detection if it were more common.

As far as trade with India or a direct Indian influence on Moro culture, there is again little evidence for that. India is some distance from the southern Philippines. Trade between China and India certainly did occur, but much of that centered in what is now Vietnam. I suppose India --> China --> Philippines may be one path. Another possibility might be a wootz blade or ingot brought back from a pilgrimage to Mecca.

Wootz is also a rarity in many countries much closer to India than the Philippines, including those of mainland SE Asia and Indonesia. Widespread Indian influence in providing wootz for weapons does not seem to be the norm in that region.

Ian

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by Ian

CCUAL:

I agree with much of what you have said, although I do stand by my statement that a wootz blade on a Moro weapon would be exceedingly rare. Moro weapons are often etched, so such a pattern would be unlikely to escape our detection if it were more common.

As far as trade with India or a direct Indian influence on Moro culture, there is again little evidence for that. India is some distance from the southern Philippines. Trade between China and India certainly did occur, but much of that centered in what is now Vietnam. I suppose India --> China --> Philippines may be one path. Another possibility might be a wootz blade or ingot brought back from a pilgrimage to Mecca.

Wootz is also a rarity in many countries much closer to India than the Philippines, including those of mainland SE Asia and Indonesia. Widespread Indian influence in providing wootz for weapons does not seem to be the norm in that region.

Ian

Hi sir, while I have no input regarding the sword's wootz-ness, would just like to gently point out that the sword in question (Panay Tenegre) came from Panay, that's in the Visayas, not in Mindanao (where the Moros thrived). Although I'm not sure if the Visayan traditional smiths back then can do wootz; certainly I haven't heard of any Visayan antique blade that exhibited wootz.

[kino]

Originally Posted by Ian

As far as trade with India or a direct Indian influence on Moro culture, there is again little evidence for that. India is some distance from the southern Philippines.

Ian

Take a look at this,

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=Chevron

The probability of a wootz blade existing in the Philippines is low but I would never say never. It wasnt too long ago that some folks were saying that a twist core Barung blade didn't exist but we were pleasantly proven wrong.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by kino

Take a look at this,

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=Chevron

The probability of a wootz blade existing in the Philippines is low but I would never say never. It wasnt too long ago that some folks were saying that a twist core Barung blade didn't exist but we were pleasantly proven wrong.

Hi kino:

Thanks for the link to your chevron-bladed kris. As noted by several commenters in that thread it is a very unusual kris and possibly not of Moro origin--perhaps Malay. The largest extant Indian population in SE Asia is in Singapore and it is possible that some elements of Indian metal working existed there in the 19th C. Malaya and Singapore were part of the British Empire at that time, as well as India.

As I was careful to state earlier in this thread, I'm open to the possibility of wootz being used to make a Moro edged weapon, but such a finding would be very rare. Just as rare, say, as a chevron-bladed kris of which there has been one example shown on this forum and none of our experienced commenters have seen another.

Ian.