Matchlock gun of Afghanistan?

ariel · 26th August 2018, 02:26 PM

I am a bit confused. Binding is the last thing put on something during the final assembly, and rattan is very prone to natural destruction. Its use implies its abundance for easy replacement.
AFAIK, rattan is endemic to hot wet areas : SE Asia from Burma and Sri Lanka to Malaysia , Indonesia etc. It is a jungle plant.
Does it grow in Afghanistan or NW India with their largely desert-y climate? I checked Wiki “ rattan” and could not find it being mentioned there. In fact, the only time Afghanistan was mentioned as an importer of rattan from Thailand.
Do we know of widespread use of rattan in weaponry or other products in those areas?
Just wondering...

BANDOOK · 27th August 2018, 11:39 AM

hi Ariel
For your kind information there is plenty of rattan [variety of jungle grass\cane}in the indian subcontinent,usually for making colonial style furniture, and household impliments,Lot of Naga and Assam weapons have rattan used ,could be easily traded with neigbouring countrys .
regards
Rajesh

ariel · 27th August 2018, 12:55 PM

True enough. But this is East India where rattan is abundant, and I was asking about NW India + Afghanistan.
Any grassy materiel, rattan included, must be quite perishable , especially when it is attached to hot rifle barrels. This would require easy access to cheap replacements. Owners of primitive village -made guns were unlikely to buy imported materials time and time again. They would go for something simple and resilient: metal wire or brackets.

This is why the idea of Rickystl about South India might have merit. We see a lot of rattan on SEA weapons. As a matter of fact, their mere presence allowed SEA experts among us immediately attribute them to SEA, Indonesia, Philippines etc.

Do you have documented Afghani or Sindhi examples of guns with rattan bindings?

fernando · 27th August 2018, 01:38 PM

Although not so recurrent, Toradars exist that may be seen with rattan binding. What i find more intriguing than this raw material appearing in areas out of its natural environment, is that (some) gun smiths bind their barrels with such perishable stuff, instead of the massively used metallic bands, which can be saved from any disposables, like old wire or tin recipients.
Could it be aesthetics ?

(Courtesy Ambrose Antiques)

.

ariel · 27th August 2018, 02:18 PM

Toradars were spread all over India, from the Mughal domain to Mysore.
Do we know with certainty whence this particular one came?

rickystl · 27th August 2018, 02:48 PM

I have never seen rattan used on an gun of Afghan origin. But I have seen Toradors with silver, brass, wire, and even leather used for barrel bands.

Rick

fernando · 27th August 2018, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

...Do we know with certainty whence this particular one came?

Not with real authority; other that it is said to have a Farsi maker’s signature on the breech top of its wootz barrel, fastened with rattan bands.
Looks like Stone places Toradars more towards Central and Norther India

.

ariel · 27th August 2018, 07:01 PM

That's the rub....

Barrels were imported and transported, and the attribution of the finished product ( the gun in toto) is often determined by its stock/butt.
The Corrado's gun is not of a classical Afghani or Sindhi fashion.
On the other hand, here is one from Ashoka Art gallery, defined as South Indian. Its stock looks more like Corrado's. And yet another one from the same collection, also attributed to South India, and even with a rattan binding.
Rickystl and Fernando: thanks for your input, it provides quite a lot of food for thought.

26th August 2018, 02:26 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am a bit confused. Binding is the last thing put on something during the final assembly, and rattan is very prone to natural destruction. Its use implies its abundance for easy replacement. AFAIK, rattan is endemic to hot wet areas : SE Asia from Burma and Sri Lanka to Malaysia , Indonesia etc. It is a jungle plant. Does it grow in Afghanistan or NW India with their largely desert-y climate? I checked Wiki “ rattan” and could not find it being mentioned there. In fact, the only time Afghanistan was mentioned as an importer of rattan from Thailand. Do we know of widespread use of rattan in weaponry or other products in those areas? Just wondering... Last edited by ariel; 26th August 2018 at 02:53 PM.

27th August 2018, 01:38 PM	#4
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Although not so recurrent, Toradars exist that may be seen with rattan binding. What i find more intriguing than this raw material appearing in areas out of its natural environment, is that (some) gun smiths bind their barrels with such perishable stuff, instead of the massively used metallic bands, which can be saved from any disposables, like old wire or tin recipients. Could it be aesthetics ? (Courtesy Ambrose Antiques) . Attached Images

27th August 2018, 07:01 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	That's the rub.... Barrels were imported and transported, and the attribution of the finished product ( the gun in toto) is often determined by its stock/butt. The Corrado's gun is not of a classical Afghani or Sindhi fashion. On the other hand, here is one from Ashoka Art gallery, defined as South Indian. Its stock looks more like Corrado's. And yet another one from the same collection, also attributed to South India, and even with a rattan binding. Rickystl and Fernando: thanks for your input, it provides quite a lot of food for thought. Attached Images

27th August 2018, 11:39 AM	#2
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	hi Ariel For your kind information there is plenty of rattan [variety of jungle grass\cane}in the indian subcontinent,usually for making colonial style furniture, and household impliments,Lot of Naga and Assam weapons have rattan used ,could be easily traded with neigbouring countrys . regards Rajesh

27th August 2018, 12:55 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	True enough. But this is East India where rattan is abundant, and I was asking about NW India + Afghanistan. Any grassy materiel, rattan included, must be quite perishable , especially when it is attached to hot rifle barrels. This would require easy access to cheap replacements. Owners of primitive village -made guns were unlikely to buy imported materials time and time again. They would go for something simple and resilient: metal wire or brackets. This is why the idea of Rickystl about South India might have merit. We see a lot of rattan on SEA weapons. As a matter of fact, their mere presence allowed SEA experts among us immediately attribute them to SEA, Indonesia, Philippines etc. Do you have documented Afghani or Sindhi examples of guns with rattan bindings?

27th August 2018, 02:18 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Toradars were spread all over India, from the Mughal domain to Mysore. Do we know with certainty whence this particular one came?

27th August 2018, 02:48 PM	#6
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	I have never seen rattan used on an gun of Afghan origin. But I have seen Toradors with silver, brass, wire, and even leather used for barrel bands. Rick