The question of Egypt

Kubur · 25th August 2018, 08:28 AM

Hi Motan,

I was waiting a bit to see what the others had in mind.
They answered partially to your question.
In fact we all have Egyptian daggers, they are called Ottoman, Turkish, Arab, Bedouin daggers...
As it was mentionned by some members for the Mamluks, it's not always the Egyptians who borrowed these weapons but they also contributed to the field and later theses weapons were used by the Arabs, Ottomans... but they were not Ottoman weapons originally...
Here in these late 18th c. engravings you can see some Egyptian daggers...

Best,
Kubur

motan · 25th August 2018, 12:06 PM

Hello Kubur,
Thanks. This is a significant contribution. I suspected something in this direction, as you can read in my last post, but there was no evidence. It is there now. But still, it is strange that this great tradition has not continued into 19th-20th c., or did it??

ariel · 25th August 2018, 01:44 PM

Kubur,
Can you specify the source of these engravings and post the legends with the info which daggers are Egyptian?

As a wild guess l might suggest that North African/Arab kindjals older than ~ 1860 might be Egyptian, but after that they might be Turkish as well: Circassians lived in the Mamluk Egypt for centuries, but only after ~ 1864 they were exiled from their native lands by the Russians and were resettled all over the Empire.

As an example, Turks settled Circassians in Amman only in the 1870s, and they became an official Royal Guard in 1920s.
By comparison, the first governor of Khartoum was a Circassian Mamluk ( ~1820s). There are still “Qubba-s” ( secular burial buildings of him and another Circassian governor) in Khartoum on Abbas Avenue ( named after the first governor).

I have a classical kindjal of a Shapsough form ( very heavy and wide blade), with a “Sudanese” leather scabbard. Definitely not a Caucasian or Turkish production:-) I think it is an Egyptian Circassian Mamluk one.

Kubur · 25th August 2018, 04:41 PM

Hi guys,

I think the tradition ended before, during the Ottoman period, around the 17th...
Ariel, you probably mention the Qama far left, I think it's a pure Ottoman/Turkish but the blade might be Caucasian, I let that to you.
The legends mention just daggers with no provenance or local names...
These drawings were done in the late 18th during the Napoleonic expedition in Egypt and are very reliable.
There is one dagger that I never saw before, far right (in the corner), any idea of it's provenance??

kamachate · 28th August 2018, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I have a classical kindjal of a Shapsough form ( very heavy and wide blade), with a “Sudanese” leather scabbard. Definitely not a Caucasian or Turkish production:-) I think it is an Egyptian Circassian Mamluk one.

Hı Ariel,
Do we have any chance to see that piece, the Shapsough one? Forgive me if I missed it in ant of the previous threads.

ariel · 30th August 2018, 09:56 PM

Sorry for the late response: trivialities like job, family duties etc. got in the way:-)
But here it is: blade 15" long, 2 3/8" wide near the handle. Was sharpened and resharpened many times.
If you can read the stamp, I shall be much obliged.

kamachate · 1st September 2018, 09:01 AM

Ariel, Thank you for the images. It is really very hard to read this. I will ask a friend for it.

ariel · 1st September 2018, 12:18 PM

Thanks for the offer of help!
Is this one better?

25th August 2018, 08:28 AM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Motan, I was waiting a bit to see what the others had in mind. They answered partially to your question. In fact we all have Egyptian daggers, they are called Ottoman, Turkish, Arab, Bedouin daggers... As it was mentionned by some members for the Mamluks, it's not always the Egyptians who borrowed these weapons but they also contributed to the field and later theses weapons were used by the Arabs, Ottomans... but they were not Ottoman weapons originally... Here in these late 18th c. engravings you can see some Egyptian daggers... Best, Kubur Attached Images

25th August 2018, 01:44 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kubur, Can you specify the source of these engravings and post the legends with the info which daggers are Egyptian? As a wild guess l might suggest that North African/Arab kindjals older than ~ 1860 might be Egyptian, but after that they might be Turkish as well: Circassians lived in the Mamluk Egypt for centuries, but only after ~ 1864 they were exiled from their native lands by the Russians and were resettled all over the Empire. As an example, Turks settled Circassians in Amman only in the 1870s, and they became an official Royal Guard in 1920s. By comparison, the first governor of Khartoum was a Circassian Mamluk ( ~1820s). There are still “Qubba-s” ( secular burial buildings of him and another Circassian governor) in Khartoum on Abbas Avenue ( named after the first governor). I have a classical kindjal of a Shapsough form ( very heavy and wide blade), with a “Sudanese” leather scabbard. Definitely not a Caucasian or Turkish production:-) I think it is an Egyptian Circassian Mamluk one. Last edited by ariel; 25th August 2018 at 02:24 PM.

30th August 2018, 09:56 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Sorry for the late response: trivialities like job, family duties etc. got in the way:-) But here it is: blade 15" long, 2 3/8" wide near the handle. Was sharpened and resharpened many times. If you can read the stamp, I shall be much obliged. Attached Images

1st September 2018, 12:18 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks for the offer of help! Is this one better? Attached Images

25th August 2018, 12:06 PM	#2
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hello Kubur, Thanks. This is a significant contribution. I suspected something in this direction, as you can read in my last post, but there was no evidence. It is there now. But still, it is strange that this great tradition has not continued into 19th-20th c., or did it??

25th August 2018, 04:41 PM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi guys, I think the tradition ended before, during the Ottoman period, around the 17th... Ariel, you probably mention the Qama far left, I think it's a pure Ottoman/Turkish but the blade might be Caucasian, I let that to you. The legends mention just daggers with no provenance or local names... These drawings were done in the late 18th during the Napoleonic expedition in Egypt and are very reliable. There is one dagger that I never saw before, far right (in the corner), any idea of it's provenance??

1st September 2018, 09:01 AM	#7
kamachate Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 26	Ariel, Thank you for the images. It is really very hard to read this. I will ask a friend for it.