The question of Egypt

TVV · 31st July 2018, 05:15 PM

Libya is an interesting question, but we have to remember that historically it was divided into a Fezzan, with a mostly Tuareg culture and weapons, Cyrenaica and Tripolitania. We know that there was at least one sword type in Tripolitania and probably parts of Tunisia, which has a wooden or horn hilt somewhat resembling takouba (but of one piece construction) that was characeteristic of the region. Why no dagger styles emerged is a good question, to which I personally have no good explanation - other areas of the Maghreb were also under heavy Ottoman influence, with Janissary descendants favoring firearms, yataghans and swords manufactured in the Balkans, but local styles, even in imitation of Ottoman forms still emerged. Apart from one sword hilt style, the coastal areas of what is nowadays Libya seem to have fully adopted imported Ottoman weapons, as we can see from the trophies brought back by the US Marines in the early 19th century.

ariel · 1st August 2018, 03:19 AM

Teodor, bravo! You have memory size of British Library!:-)

Here is the my Tunisian sword described by Teodor.It sports a British dragoon blade second half of 18 century.
Also shown the original British sword with a similar blade but in its original garb.

Thom Richardson in his book " Islamic Arms and Armour", p.70 based on the collection of Royal Armoury in Leeds defines Tunisian swords as " very rare"

Not for nothing one with intact crossguard but without a scabbard was sold at Czerny's for 1000 euros + 28% premium.
https://classic.liveauctioneers.com/...967484_a-sword

Ian · 20th August 2018, 02:08 AM

In looking back through archived materials from 2003, I found this old thread started by ruel on the subject of "missing" Egyptian edged weapons. Its conclusions are very similar to discussions here.

http://web.archive.org/web/200306260...ML/001583.html

Ian

ariel · 20th August 2018, 05:41 AM

I would definitely agree that Ruel’s hypothesis may have a lot of merit.

It would make very little sense that a large, militarily powerful and rich state like Egypt would not have its own weapon industry.

The question, however, is somewhat different: did post-Mamluk Egypt produce its own patterns that were truly indigenous and different from the Ottoman? Just like Motan, I do not know of any.

On the other hand, some “Ottoman” kilijes from 18-19 centuries carry decorative elements traditionally attributable to Syria, a former Mamluk domain and even at that time governed by Egypt. Astvatsaturian in her book «Turkish Arms” shows a classical Turkish Pala belonging to Prince Mstislavski ( 16 century) signed “Qasym the Egyptian from Cairo”. Recently, a gorgeous Kilij was sold on an internet auction: it was inscribed as a gift from Muhammad Ali Pasha to a British functionary and dated early 19 century. Most likely, it must have been of a local Egyptian manufacture.

The situation must have been similar to the weapons from the Balkans: local manufacture but Turkish patterns.

On the other hand, we can turn the tables 180 degrees: Mamluks, even prior to their defeat at the hands of Ottoman Turks, had swords that are in fact classic kilijes. It might be possible to suggest that the Turkish ones are just reproductions of the Egyptian Mamluk examples , and that what we call Ottoman kilij/pala is in fact an indigenous Egyptian sword.

1st August 2018, 03:19 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Teodor, bravo! You have memory size of British Library!:-) Here is the my Tunisian sword described by Teodor.It sports a British dragoon blade second half of 18 century. Also shown the original British sword with a similar blade but in its original garb. Thom Richardson in his book " Islamic Arms and Armour", p.70 based on the collection of Royal Armoury in Leeds defines Tunisian swords as " very rare" Not for nothing one with intact crossguard but without a scabbard was sold at Czerny's for 1000 euros + 28% premium. https://classic.liveauctioneers.com/...967484_a-sword Attached Images

31st July 2018, 05:15 PM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Libya is an interesting question, but we have to remember that historically it was divided into a Fezzan, with a mostly Tuareg culture and weapons, Cyrenaica and Tripolitania. We know that there was at least one sword type in Tripolitania and probably parts of Tunisia, which has a wooden or horn hilt somewhat resembling takouba (but of one piece construction) that was characeteristic of the region. Why no dagger styles emerged is a good question, to which I personally have no good explanation - other areas of the Maghreb were also under heavy Ottoman influence, with Janissary descendants favoring firearms, yataghans and swords manufactured in the Balkans, but local styles, even in imitation of Ottoman forms still emerged. Apart from one sword hilt style, the coastal areas of what is nowadays Libya seem to have fully adopted imported Ottoman weapons, as we can see from the trophies brought back by the US Marines in the early 19th century.

20th August 2018, 02:08 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	In looking back through archived materials from 2003, I found this old thread started by ruel on the subject of "missing" Egyptian edged weapons. Its conclusions are very similar to discussions here. http://web.archive.org/web/200306260...ML/001583.html Ian

20th August 2018, 05:41 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I would definitely agree that Ruel’s hypothesis may have a lot of merit. It would make very little sense that a large, militarily powerful and rich state like Egypt would not have its own weapon industry. The question, however, is somewhat different: did post-Mamluk Egypt produce its own patterns that were truly indigenous and different from the Ottoman? Just like Motan, I do not know of any. On the other hand, some “Ottoman” kilijes from 18-19 centuries carry decorative elements traditionally attributable to Syria, a former Mamluk domain and even at that time governed by Egypt. Astvatsaturian in her book «Turkish Arms” shows a classical Turkish Pala belonging to Prince Mstislavski ( 16 century) signed “Qasym the Egyptian from Cairo”. Recently, a gorgeous Kilij was sold on an internet auction: it was inscribed as a gift from Muhammad Ali Pasha to a British functionary and dated early 19 century. Most likely, it must have been of a local Egyptian manufacture. The situation must have been similar to the weapons from the Balkans: local manufacture but Turkish patterns. On the other hand, we can turn the tables 180 degrees: Mamluks, even prior to their defeat at the hands of Ottoman Turks, had swords that are in fact classic kilijes. It might be possible to suggest that the Turkish ones are just reproductions of the Egyptian Mamluk examples , and that what we call Ottoman kilij/pala is in fact an indigenous Egyptian sword.