The question of Egypt

Sajen · 30th July 2018, 03:53 PM

Hi Eytan,

I just remember, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14776

Best,
Detlef

motan · 30th July 2018, 10:22 PM

Thanks Detlef,
But, the dagger in thread is clearly an Ottoman style dagger, and made as a decorative piece. I could have been made in Egypt, but this is not an authentic Egyptian style. I am looking for something local people carried.

TVV · 30th July 2018, 11:16 PM

Good question, which you may have answered in your opening post. It really was not until Mohammad Ali attempted to arm the local peasants and drill them in European manner that the local population even bore any arms. The peasants, unlike peasants in other parts of North Africa and the Middle East were not really expected to provide any kind of military service even as poorly equipped levies, with the military usually supplied by foreign slave mercenaries, such as the Circassian and Kipchaq Mamelukes prior to the Ottoman conquest. This situation goes back all the way to the Fatimid Caliphate.

The military elite certainly had its own decorative style and forms for weapons, as Egypt had sufficient arms producing capabilities until the 16th century, and it may be interesting to see how much of what we consider Ottoman in terms of sword hilt and blade style (and armor too) may have been borrowed from the Mamelukes. However, following the Ottoman conquest it appears that a lot of the bladesmiths along with other skilled artisans may have been resettled in other parts of the Empire, as was the custom in the Middle East following conquests, which must have brought an end to the local arms producing traditions. This explains why we stop seeing blades signed by so and so "Al-Misri" into the 17th century and thereafter, with the local military elite relying on imports or weapons brought along with the mercenaries themselves, such as in the case of Mohammad Ali's Balkan (predominantly Albanian) contingent which turned out to be strong enough to take advantage of the power vacuum left in the early 19th century following Napoleon's campaign.

When you think about it, this is not just limited to daggers, but is also the case when it comes to swords and firearms - following the Ottoman conquest, there ceases to be a style that we can recognize as clearly Egyptian.

Battara · 30th July 2018, 11:23 PM

Thought Motan, that the Ottomans ruled in fact and later in name from the 16th to the 20th centuries. Thus an Ottoman dagger might have been considered Egyptian.

What I hear you asking for is an example of and information on the indigenous versions of the Egyptian dagger.

ariel · 31st July 2018, 02:50 AM

Weapons studded with corals are usually attributable to Turkey proper and to Algeria. The latter had the richest coral deposits .
Moran has asked a good question: come to think of it, I also am unfamiliar with any Egyptian weapons. Mamluks till 16 century, Ottoman thereafter.
Something is indeed very strange: Morocco, Tunis, their Kabyle tribes, Algeria, even Tuaregs, - all had their national bladed weapons. But not the Egyptians.
Teodor might be correct: Egypt was ruled by foreigners for centuries, and they brought their weapons.
What about Libya?

motan · 31st July 2018, 09:17 AM

Hi,
Thank you all for your response, but particularly TVV who gave a good overview of the Egyptian situation. I think that this phenomenon is wider than Egypt alone.
In early Ottoman period, Ottoman military ruled and had all the weapons. Soldiers who were drafted in Albania, the Caucasus, and the Balkan brought their own regional weapons with them and these mixed into the wider Ottoman culture.

In later Ottoman period, the control over their territory became weaker and less centralized. More local dagger types emerged, but only where tribes and clans with independent character were present, like in, Lower Iraq, the Syrian desert, in Druze and Christian mountain strongholds and Kurdistan.
Eytan

ariel · 31st July 2018, 01:15 PM

Yes, it is wider.
The best known ( to me) example is what we now call Russia.
Originally , a hodge-pudge of Ugro- Finnish and Slavic tribes , manufacturing simple cutting and chopping tools without any distinctions. Then, they were controlled by the Vikings, and adopted their weapons. Then, they were conquered by the Mongols and swapped their straight swords and daggers for sabers. Then, with the emergence of a Russian State, they got access to Turkish and Persian weapons , and from there on their weapons acquired “ Islamic” overtones. Peter the Great tried to remake Russia into a semblance of a European society and armed his military with European weapons.

And then, as a cherry on top, Caucasian War radically changed Russian military fashions: shashka and kindjail became a basis for regulation weapons, aristocracy and even Tsars started sporting Caucasian garb. A unique example of the vanquished dictating the fashions to the victors.

The best they could achieve was a production of standard weapons of their era ( whatever it was at the time) with a lot of bling and artistic embellishments.

But the “Russian” pattern of whatever weapons , unlike Indian, Persian or Arab traditions never emerged.

TVV · 31st July 2018, 05:15 PM

Libya is an interesting question, but we have to remember that historically it was divided into a Fezzan, with a mostly Tuareg culture and weapons, Cyrenaica and Tripolitania. We know that there was at least one sword type in Tripolitania and probably parts of Tunisia, which has a wooden or horn hilt somewhat resembling takouba (but of one piece construction) that was characeteristic of the region. Why no dagger styles emerged is a good question, to which I personally have no good explanation - other areas of the Maghreb were also under heavy Ottoman influence, with Janissary descendants favoring firearms, yataghans and swords manufactured in the Balkans, but local styles, even in imitation of Ottoman forms still emerged. Apart from one sword hilt style, the coastal areas of what is nowadays Libya seem to have fully adopted imported Ottoman weapons, as we can see from the trophies brought back by the US Marines in the early 19th century.

30th July 2018, 03:53 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,207	Hi Eytan, I just remember, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14776 Best, Detlef

30th July 2018, 10:22 PM	#2
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Thanks Detlef, But, the dagger in thread is clearly an Ottoman style dagger, and made as a decorative piece. I could have been made in Egypt, but this is not an authentic Egyptian style. I am looking for something local people carried.

30th July 2018, 11:16 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Good question, which you may have answered in your opening post. It really was not until Mohammad Ali attempted to arm the local peasants and drill them in European manner that the local population even bore any arms. The peasants, unlike peasants in other parts of North Africa and the Middle East were not really expected to provide any kind of military service even as poorly equipped levies, with the military usually supplied by foreign slave mercenaries, such as the Circassian and Kipchaq Mamelukes prior to the Ottoman conquest. This situation goes back all the way to the Fatimid Caliphate. The military elite certainly had its own decorative style and forms for weapons, as Egypt had sufficient arms producing capabilities until the 16th century, and it may be interesting to see how much of what we consider Ottoman in terms of sword hilt and blade style (and armor too) may have been borrowed from the Mamelukes. However, following the Ottoman conquest it appears that a lot of the bladesmiths along with other skilled artisans may have been resettled in other parts of the Empire, as was the custom in the Middle East following conquests, which must have brought an end to the local arms producing traditions. This explains why we stop seeing blades signed by so and so "Al-Misri" into the 17th century and thereafter, with the local military elite relying on imports or weapons brought along with the mercenaries themselves, such as in the case of Mohammad Ali's Balkan (predominantly Albanian) contingent which turned out to be strong enough to take advantage of the power vacuum left in the early 19th century following Napoleon's campaign. When you think about it, this is not just limited to daggers, but is also the case when it comes to swords and firearms - following the Ottoman conquest, there ceases to be a style that we can recognize as clearly Egyptian.

30th July 2018, 11:23 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Thought Motan, that the Ottomans ruled in fact and later in name from the 16th to the 20th centuries. Thus an Ottoman dagger might have been considered Egyptian. What I hear you asking for is an example of and information on the indigenous versions of the Egyptian dagger.

31st July 2018, 02:50 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Weapons studded with corals are usually attributable to Turkey proper and to Algeria. The latter had the richest coral deposits . Moran has asked a good question: come to think of it, I also am unfamiliar with any Egyptian weapons. Mamluks till 16 century, Ottoman thereafter. Something is indeed very strange: Morocco, Tunis, their Kabyle tribes, Algeria, even Tuaregs, - all had their national bladed weapons. But not the Egyptians. Teodor might be correct: Egypt was ruled by foreigners for centuries, and they brought their weapons. What about Libya?

31st July 2018, 09:17 AM	#6
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi, Thank you all for your response, but particularly TVV who gave a good overview of the Egyptian situation. I think that this phenomenon is wider than Egypt alone. In early Ottoman period, Ottoman military ruled and had all the weapons. Soldiers who were drafted in Albania, the Caucasus, and the Balkan brought their own regional weapons with them and these mixed into the wider Ottoman culture. In later Ottoman period, the control over their territory became weaker and less centralized. More local dagger types emerged, but only where tribes and clans with independent character were present, like in, Lower Iraq, the Syrian desert, in Druze and Christian mountain strongholds and Kurdistan. Eytan

31st July 2018, 01:15 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yes, it is wider. The best known ( to me) example is what we now call Russia. Originally , a hodge-pudge of Ugro- Finnish and Slavic tribes , manufacturing simple cutting and chopping tools without any distinctions. Then, they were controlled by the Vikings, and adopted their weapons. Then, they were conquered by the Mongols and swapped their straight swords and daggers for sabers. Then, with the emergence of a Russian State, they got access to Turkish and Persian weapons , and from there on their weapons acquired “ Islamic” overtones. Peter the Great tried to remake Russia into a semblance of a European society and armed his military with European weapons. And then, as a cherry on top, Caucasian War radically changed Russian military fashions: shashka and kindjail became a basis for regulation weapons, aristocracy and even Tsars started sporting Caucasian garb. A unique example of the vanquished dictating the fashions to the victors. The best they could achieve was a production of standard weapons of their era ( whatever it was at the time) with a lot of bling and artistic embellishments. But the “Russian” pattern of whatever weapons , unlike Indian, Persian or Arab traditions never emerged.

31st July 2018, 05:15 PM	#8
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Libya is an interesting question, but we have to remember that historically it was divided into a Fezzan, with a mostly Tuareg culture and weapons, Cyrenaica and Tripolitania. We know that there was at least one sword type in Tripolitania and probably parts of Tunisia, which has a wooden or horn hilt somewhat resembling takouba (but of one piece construction) that was characeteristic of the region. Why no dagger styles emerged is a good question, to which I personally have no good explanation - other areas of the Maghreb were also under heavy Ottoman influence, with Janissary descendants favoring firearms, yataghans and swords manufactured in the Balkans, but local styles, even in imitation of Ottoman forms still emerged. Apart from one sword hilt style, the coastal areas of what is nowadays Libya seem to have fully adopted imported Ottoman weapons, as we can see from the trophies brought back by the US Marines in the early 19th century.